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Discussion Starter #1
O.K. Spending many hours filtering through many of the fine threads on changing the T belt but feeling a bit lost so I am going to pose some simple, perhaps simplistic questions and go from there. Sorry if I seem to be rehashing what has been already written but...

Now have the timing covers off (I was going to get my ac checked after the t belt change but found that the rut on the front upper part of the T belt basically ground a hole into the a/c return pipe! Good thing I have a sunroof)

I have lots of grunge on the block and would prefer to remove the T belt for proper cleaning as I don't think degreasers are kind to rubber parts.

When removing th eS belt, I found that all pulleys spun feely. removed the tension pulley and piston with an 8mm allen key and 4x4 block, jacked up with a bottle jack. Worked like a charm. Tension pulley seemed a bit slow but there was rust and dirt on the face, at the bearing to pulley gap and after cleaning it up (both sides) and letting some penetrating oil into the gaps, now spins freely and fast. The needle bearings were grungy and after cleaning those up as well and soaking with wd40, they also move freely and pivot easily on the shaft so, so far, no bad parts it seems.

back to the T belt, I do not have special tools. I will be taking off the top covers to check all gaskets and plug gaskets as I believe the leaks came from under torqued covers or the half moon gaskets at the left side of the cams.

So:
1-is there any way to rotate the engine safely without the 41mm nut?
2-if not, and if engine timing is o.k., should the marks on the cam pulleys line up to each other (there are painted marks on all 4) and to the marks on the blocks under the covers?
3-the top pulley spins fairly free with little play on the belt. is this a sign of under tension and maybe pointing to a weak tension?
4-if I remove the tension pulley and piston (gently), will I be causing a problem or can I "lock" the belt into position and remove the tension pulley to check it and the piston?

I have stared at the pulley and piston and do not see the locking hole mentioned, although I think I ran across it in one of the threads. Do I use an allan key and release tension as per the S belt piston-pulley?

Placing alignment marks on the belt and pulley will keep things aligned but not sure if removing tension may cause a tooth to slip

My manual shows the procedure for pre 24v engines so not much use.

The T belt is an alfa belt and shows no wear or damage so will likely just keep.

Thanks much.
 

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"The needle bearings were grungy and after cleaning those up as well and soaking with wd40, they also move freely"

Be aware that WD40 is not a proper lube for bearings. Frees them up, yes, but not a good long term lube at all.

Others who have done the job will comment, but I smell trouble brewing here. Nothing in the 12v manual is applicable to the 24v engine. If nothing else, get a copy of the 24v workshop manual, either paper or CD. Wouldn't dream of winging it from scratch experience and no documentation.

Do not attempt this without the manual, unless maybe you have years of experience being a petrol head with engine work. Even then...

BTW, if you take the timing belt off, you should always use a new one, ie, cheap insurance, regardless of how it looks.
 

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Nothing complicated to install the T-belt 24V - no.
But it is necessary to have a special tool for removing the camshaft pulley.
Here is the handmade.




1. remove S-belt
2. remove the T-belt covers and the camshaft covers
3.unscrew the spark plug, which would have been easy to turn the crankshaft
4. unscrew the nut of the crankshaft 41 mm, it is better to use a pneumatic tool.
5.twist the crankshaft of the nut-41 in a clockwise direction and set at TDC mark. mark on the crankshaft pulley - mate mark below the water pump. The marks on the camshafts are behind.
6.tensioner probably need to fix before removing the tension pulley.
I write "probably" because I have a long time there is a bolt.:wink2:
7. remove T-belt, remove the camshaft pulleys and leave out in their places, but they could rotate. remove the crankshaft pulley.
8. install the new belt, belt tensioner, tightens the belt, check the marks. on the right head, camshafts have to hold on the marks at the same time tighten the pulley bolts. Of course it is more convenient to do this when there are camshaft clips ( conductor ) .In turn, spin all bolts camshaft pulley.
9.check the tightening torque of all bolts and nuts.that is all.
Written as I could, I'm sorry for my English.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Re 24v T belt procedure

Thanks for advice to you all.

Del, the wd40 was to loosen up any gunk and check the needle bearings for cracks, missing rollers, and general condition. As it's thin and runny, WD40 does a good job of flushing out small bits of dirt but it won't do for any long-term lube. Once thoroughly cleaned up, I was going to use anti-seize grease in there.

Evgeny, thanks to you as well. Regarding the T belt and bearing, the hope is that I can rotate, lock up the cams and then loosen-remove the tension bearing and piston to examine and either recondition or replace as needed. I will be grabbing another T belt as it is cheap insurance. I have looked at the cam locks and they seem simple enough to reproduce. I made up one for my Biturbo years ago and that was simple enough.

From what I read, the crank pulley does not need to be removed to replace the T belt so I would rather not go that route. My air gun does NOT push out more that 120 psi on a good day.

I just want to make sure I get all of the marks lined up and I do not have a depth gauge for the TDC so let's hope engine timing is spot-on.

Speaking of manuals, I have 2 copies covering up to 1993 (12v). Purchased one on-line just a few weeks back that was to cover the 24v but not so. Does anyone have a 24v supplement available?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Why remove cam pulleys?

Evgeny. One question though.

Why would I remove the camshaft pulleys to replace the T belt? How can I replace the T belt without the Cam pulleys in place? Found that advice confusing.

If I align and lock the cams in place against the marks, I should be able to remove the tension bearing and piston for examination, correct?
 

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Why would I remove the camshaft pulleys to replace the T belt? How can I replace the T belt without the Cam pulleys in place? Found that advice confusing.
In order to properly tension the T- belt.
When all four camshafts are free pulley, tensioner will pull the T-belt right. At the same time the crankshaft and four camshaft will stand on the marks still.

If I align and lock the cams in place against the marks, I should be able to remove the tension bearing and piston for examination, correct?
Yes, but perhaps it will be necessary to fix the piston. I redesigned tensioner, there is threaded and threaded bolt M10. Because of this, I'm changing the belt after 50 000 km
 

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What needle bearings are you talking about? I don't know of any in a 24V timing setup.
You need to have the TSB issued in late 94, the last one issued for setting timing. The manual is helpful but the TSB overrules the manual. However, you need the manual for the torques for replacing all the various fasteners
You ask about marks on pulleys. Only the guy who put them there knows. However you need to make sure you are at TDC (use the mark on the crank pulley and the triangle pointer) AND the cam marks on the end line up. Remember this is a 4 stroke engine and thus two cranks of the crankshaft = 1 crank of the camshaft.
I would replace the t-belt if you are going to re-time the motor or do a lot of degreasing with brake cleaner in that area.
If you are unsure of your abilities I would STOP NOW and simply use 'simple green' or some other non volatile cleaner. If you use simple green and leave the belt on you 'should' be OK as long as you rinse it off real good with water.
Although T belt is not hard to R/R, one must have a basic awareness of mechanical complexities to deal with it

And no, the upper center idler can be under very little tension at some points in the crank/cam cycle. If the belt is slipping a little on that it is OK. The belt should not be sloppy loose in any case.

And yes you can rotate the motor without using the crank nut, as long as the tbelt is on , timed correctly and tensioned. Jack up the front of the car , put it in gear, take out the spark plugs and spin the front wheels. The motor will turn with the wheels (assuming a 5 speed car)

No need to remove the crank nut tho. Go buy a socket for the nut that will allow you to turn the crank pulley

Also-- I try not to remove or loosen the cam pulleys unless absolutely necessary. If cam seals are leaking then take em off. Otherwise if it was timed right the first time it will remain timed right on a new belt. Variable cam timing has always been a hallmark of Alfa motors and they included it in 24V. Others will have different opinion and tell you to loosen pulleys. Many different ways to do different things!
 

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I just want to point out that excellent reproductions of the factory tools are available at a very reasonable price from Totally Alfa in the UK. They can even provide cam blocks for the GTA cams, which I have not seen from any other source.

It is a lot nicer to have the cam blocks than not, and I don't know how you can set the belt tension on one of these cars without the hammer tool.

Rex

V6 Engine - 24 Valve Busso Aftermarket Tools :: TotallyAlfa
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Re: all of the above and...

What needle bearings are you talking about? I don't know of any in a 24V timing setup.
You need to have the TSB issued in late 94, the last one issued for setting timing. The manual is helpful but the TSB overrules the manual. However, you need the manual for the torques for replacing all the various fasteners
You ask about marks on pulleys. Only the guy who put them there knows. However you need to make sure you are at TDC (use the mark on the crank pulley and the triangle pointer) AND the cam marks on the end line up. Remember this is a 4 stroke engine and thus two cranks of the crankshaft = 1 crank of the camshaft.
I would replace the t-belt if you are going to re-time the motor or do a lot of degreasing with brake cleaner in that area.
If you are unsure of your abilities I would STOP NOW and simply use 'simple green' or some other non volatile cleaner. If you use simple green and leave the belt on you 'should' be OK as long as you rinse it off real good with water.
Although T belt is not hard to R/R, one must have a basic awareness of mechanical complexities to deal with it

And no, the upper center idler can be under very little tension at some points in the crank/cam cycle. If the belt is slipping a little on that it is OK. The belt should not be sloppy loose in any case.

And yes you can rotate the motor without using the crank nut, as long as the tbelt is on , timed correctly and tensioned. Jack up the front of the car , put it in gear, take out the spark plugs and spin the front wheels. The motor will turn with the wheels (assuming a 5 speed car)

No need to remove the crank nut tho. Go buy a socket for the nut that will allow you to turn the crank pulley

Also-- I try not to remove or loosen the cam pulleys unless absolutely necessary. If cam seals are leaking then take em off. Otherwise if it was timed right the first time it will remain timed right on a new belt. Variable cam timing has always been a hallmark of Alfa motors and they included it in 24V. Others will have different opinion and tell you to loosen pulleys. Many different ways to do different things!
O.K. I've done enough auto work and never broken anything so feel pretty confident but still finding some of this advice confusing... but I thank everyone nonetheless.

So, the needle bearings are the ones in the T belt tension-pulley.
The marks on the cams are likely from the last service done on the T belt (Ferrari guy in NY according to the receipts).
Still don't see how I can remove cam pulleys and then install the T belt and still keep things lined up as removing the cam pulleys leaves nothing with which to lock them in place. So, no removal of cam pulleys.
Leaving the tension piston and roller in place, I should be able to rotate to TDC using one of the methods described. I have checked ALL of the local supply places and no one has a 41mm socket in stock.

Do you think removing the tension piston and roller lead to a belt slipping a tooth off of the pulley (after alignment of TDC marks)
I have also checked for gates and dayco belts and no one even has numbers in their system.

I should remove the T belt for a proper cleaning as going 90% of the way would be pointless if grease or unseen leak mess up the belt and cause a disaster.

Will report results.
 

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1 5/8 same thing every autozone has it. You might need a 3/4 to 1/2 reducer with it
When you use the cam lock tools they lock onto the cam lobes in place of cam caps, not the pulley. That's when you can take the pulleys off.
your question about removal of the tensioner and roller -- in about half the cases I ve tried this it works fine, usually its the front exhaust that wants to slip when not being held. The other three seem to stay in place if they are properly timed to the motor most of the time. You could use tie wraps to secure pulley to pulley (one top, one bottom) to prevent them from rotating (Ive done that before too and it works). if you lock adjacent pulleys to each other they typically wont move.

PS -- the timing belt tensioner pulley is not needle bearings on the ones I have seen, they are ball bearings. AND, if you spray anything in there to clean it, throw that tensioner away. It will seize on you, smoke the belt, and crash the valves usually. Risk not worth taking.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks

1 5/8 same thing every autozone has it. You might need a 3/4 to 1/2 reducer with it
When you use the cam lock tools they lock onto the cam lobes in place of cam caps, not the pulley. That's when you can take the pulleys off.
your question about removal of the tensioner and roller -- in about half the cases I ve tried this it works fine, usually its the front exhaust that wants to slip when not being held. The other three seem to stay in place if they are properly timed to the motor most of the time. You could use tie wraps to secure pulley to pulley (one top, one bottom) to prevent them from rotating (Ive done that before too and it works). if you lock adjacent pulleys to each other they typically wont move.

PS -- the timing belt tensioner pulley is not needle bearings on the ones I have seen, they are ball bearings. AND, if you spray anything in there to clean it, throw that tensioner away. It will seize on you, smoke the belt, and crash the valves usually. Risk not worth taking.
O.K. Makes more sense. I will make a contraption to lock the cams into place, after rotating to TDC and then slip off the tension roller and piston.

To be clear, I was referring to the S belt tension roller and piston, not the T belt. I may not have made that clear. it now spins freely and I understand there is little force on the S belt tension roller but will check and replace the T roller once off.

Thanks.
 

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Goats has forgotten way more about this than I will ever know, but I do know that when I bought my car, I took it to the local dealer/stealer who used to be an Alfa dealer, asked for the Alfa mechanic and expected the job to be done right with factory tools. It was not, and the car ran poorly until I bought my own tools and took it to the right mechanic.

What we found was that the dealer/stealer had simply maintained the as-found timing even though one cam had slipped a bit.

The beauty of the cam locks is: (1) they hold down that pesky exhaust cam that will jump on you when the belt is off; and (2) they let you loosen the cam pulleys to get the timing spot on without having to choose between a tooth too near and a tooth to far.
 

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Rex is 110% correct. I get the impression that beeton is not wanting to do this 'by the book' due to the expense and therefore is taking some liberty. If this is true, no amount of cajoling will change his approach. Thus, it becomes a matter of 'do the best with the limited resources'. Evgeny is a solid McGuyver type guy that a) seems to have deep experience in working on cars and b) has a great vision of how to skin the cat different ways and c) probably does things (details)in his procedures that are so 'matter of fact' to him that he doesn't write them down -- he just does them automatically. (( This is a huge compliment to Evegny's experience and inventiveness.)) Reminds me of the 'zen and the art of motorcycle maintenace' by Pirsig -- where he talks about jiggling the headlight switch -- its obvious, right?

The cam tools were made by Alfa to make setting the timing as simple (foolproof) as possible. Not using them is a simple risk/reward determination.
 

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There is always the right way, the wrong way and the other way and then maybe another way to do any job but having all the parts and tools to do it with 99 and 44/100 % accuracy takes some doing.

Many of us have been through this timing belt change process on both the 12v and the 24v Alfa engines and have taken various shortcuts and used various aids from others but it is a learned process that can be hard to correctly communicate to others.

As for the 24v engine it is not really that hard but trying to short cut the process. Assuming the last guy painted the pulleys CORRECTLY only after he confirmed with cams locked in place with timing dies and had the crank pulley timing marks at top dead center (which means #1 piston is at top dead center) can be a crap shoot.
 

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Some 24v 164 engine cam timing etc... factory bulletins

01.93.07
94 164 24V. 24V Crankshaft Nut Socket. Use Wurth p/n 71514141 socket to remove [turn] the crankshaft pulley. AKA 1 5/8" socket].
01.93.09
94 164 24V engines. New Accessory Drive Belt. New belt which prevents squealing.
01.93.10
94 164 24V models. Timing Belt Tensioner Tool. Tool can be fabricated from 1/16" welding rod.
01.94.05
All 24V engines. Checking Timing Belt Tension. The procedure in the manual has changed.
01.94.06
All 24V engines. Adjusting Timing Belt Tension. The procedure in the manual has changed.
01.94.07
All 24V engines. Checking & Adjusting Cam Timing. The procedure in the manual has changed.
01.94.08
All 24V engines. Replacing the Poly-V Belt. The procedure in the manual has changed.

See these bulletins here as well as many others: http://www.digest.net/alfa/FAQ/164/tsb.htm
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Rex is 110% correct. I get the impression that beeton is not wanting to do this 'by the book' due to the expense and therefore is taking some liberty. If this is true, no amount of cajoling will change his approach. Thus, it becomes a matter of 'do the best with the limited resources'. Evgeny is a solid McGuyver type guy that a) seems to have deep experience in working on cars and b) has a great vision of how to skin the cat different ways and c) probably does things (details)in his procedures that are so 'matter of fact' to him that he doesn't write them down -- he just does them automatically. (( This is a huge compliment to Evegny's experience and inventiveness.)) Reminds me of the 'zen and the art of motorcycle maintenace' by Pirsig -- where he talks about jiggling the headlight switch -- its obvious, right?

The cam tools were made by Alfa to make setting the timing as simple (foolproof) as possible. Not using them is a simple risk/reward determination.
I'm not looking to replace gaskets with bubble gum. Obviously, I will check to see if the cams are aligned and take it from there but as Rex demonstrated, even someone with the right tools can do a mediocre job. Evigney has a pro touch and although he suggests removing the cam pulleys, I was not understanding exactly why.
Cam covers are off and it seems that poorly sealed half moon gasket section, or not properly torqued as the bolts loosened up with minimal effort, may have been the culprit. New gaskets are on order but wow, a timing belt seems to be a rare animal.
 

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" but wow, a timing belt seems to be a rare animal"

Have you tried DiFatta or Jason (Alfissimo)?

The Fiat eper parts list shows the 24V timing belt number to be 60561244, and both show that number.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Timing belt

" but wow, a timing belt seems to be a rare animal"

Have you tried DiFatta or Jason (Alfissimo)?

The Fiat eper parts list shows the 24V timing belt number to be 60561244, and both show that number.
Yes, a rare animal up here where even 2 of the local Alfa guys have to order them from abroad. I can do that as well but was hoping to pick one up prior to the weekend. Prefer not to have things disassembled for another 7-10 days. Gates Canada will not bring in their 5475 product belt. Rock auto sells both Gates and Flennor but Flennor is shipped from the U.K. In both cases, shipping for each item is higher than the item cost. Not a big deal but would rather dish out more and have it in hand.
Sadly, I just received an order from Rock auto for an extra alternator, steering parts, pads and cv boots for my "parts" shelf but had not ordered a belt.
 
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