Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've just finished changing the power steering pump in my 95 LS and thought I'd share some of the interesting tidbits.

Failure mode: Everything was working perfectly fine the night before, but next morning when I started the car there was absolutely no assist. I immediately turned off the car and checked the fluid and it was still at the max. The only hint I had of the impending problem was that the power steering made a whining sound for the first few minutes the morning before. Both mornings were the coldest of the year so far, so I guess that had something to do with it.

After driving the car without assist for a while (I was on vacation 200 miles from home), all the fluid began leaking out of the rack. I knew from previous experience that turning the steering without assist dislodges the rack seals, and that's what happened again. Fortunately I made it home without the pump seizing.

Contrary to other posts, it is possible and really not all that hard to remove the pump without taking off a bunch of other stuff. Here's my step by step:
-Jack up front of car, remove right front wheel and inner plastic liners
-Take off serpentine belt by undoing the water pump pulley and sliding it off with the belt
-Loosen the hose fittings with open end spanners (one is 15/16", the other is 7/8"). Don't lose the copper gaskets.
-The pump is held on with four screws, 1 accessible from the front and 3 at the rear. Leave the easy front one until last
-The two rear screws furthest away from the engine block can be loosened with a 13mm crowfoot wrench mounted on a socket extension about 8" long. Working from inside the wheel well, run the socket extension out past the engine pulleys, and attach the socket wrench. Just get the screws loosened a bit, and then they can be removed the rest of the way by hand. My car had shims between the pump and the mounting bracket, so don't lose those.
-The hard to reach rear screw is next to the block, right by an oil line next to the oil filter. It's possible to get a short 13mm open end spanner on the screw head, and it wasn't hard to get the screw loosened by giving the spanner a few whacks with my hand. Then loosen it as much as possible by hand until the screw head starts to hit the oil line
-Now the last mounting screw on the front can be removed.
-Now there will be enough slack in the pump to completely loosen by hand the rear mounting screw by the oil line. Once it's loose the pump will come out. The screw won't come out as it's blocked by the oil line.

I sent my pump to Power Brake Exchange near LA for a rebuild. Not only did they know what an Alfa Romeo is, but they actually had another pump from a 95LS on the shelf. I had them rebuild mine for only $65, and what they found was a chip in the relief valve. I think what happened was that when I started the car on that cold morning with thick fluid, there must have been a pressure surge that damaged the relief valve and cause it to stick open. At that point, there was no fluid pressure and no assist, but the fluid would have kept circulating, which explains why the pump didn't seize. Power Brake Exchange is at 800-268-6853.

Reinstallation took about an hour, and fortunately so far it looks like the rack seals have popped back into place and are sealing again.

Hope this helps someone. It's really not as hard as some of the other posts have said.

Jason
San Jose, CA
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
26,810 Posts
Couple of questions:

1. Does the 164 24v P/S pump pulley come off by removing three bolts like 12v V6 pump and if so you get more room to work to get to mounting bolts with pulley off pump?

2. Once you loosened water pump pulley bolts with serpentine belt still in tension and on all pulleys did you then retract serpentine belt tensioner shock cylinder and insert a drift pin aka special tool to keep cylinder from extending when you removed water pump pulley?

Alfa 164 TSB 01.94.08

You don't really need special tools to set tension on serpentine belt but here is TSB on doing it and using "drift pin" to hold shock tensioner cylinder.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Steve,

1. Removing the PS pump pulley wouldn't improve access to the mounting screws (the pump body is about the same diameter as the pulley).

2. No, my tensioner shock cylinder is seized so I couldn't relieve the tension that way. However, it was easy to just slide the water pump pulley off and on with the belt, even with the correct tension on the belt.

Jason
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
272 Posts
The pump I removed last month was from a '94, and there was no way for me to get a wrench on the one bolt that was blocked by the oil cooler line. I ended up removing the bracket that holds the pump, which was a pain. Perhaps they left a bit more room on the '95!

The pump itself was an easy fix when I had it out of the car. The stuck relief valve was very obvious with the pump opened up.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
26,810 Posts
Steve,

1. Removing the PS pump pulley wouldn't improve access to the mounting screws (the pump body is about the same diameter as the pulley).

2. No, my tensioner shock cylinder is seized so I couldn't relieve the tension that way. However, it was easy to just slide the water pump pulley off and on with the belt, even with the correct tension on the belt.

Jason
Could be you have frozen eccentric pivot point or allen head bolt in it to tight.

Bulletin says you have to loosen bolt to be able to compress cylinder. Seems to me the gas charge/fluid/spring in the cylinder should keep correct tension on serpentine belt same as the gas charge/fluid/spring does in 24v timing belt tensioner by moving pulley eccentric pivot point to keep belt tensioned.

Who am I to say that sometimes Alfa 164 stuff doesn't always work logically?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I assumed the tensioner only saw duty when the tension needed to be adjusted for some reason, like changing the belt. But it sounds like you're saying it needs to be free to move to keep the belt in tension during normal operation? If so, I guess I'd better figure out why my tensioner is frozen.

Jason
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
559 Posts
Great write up, makes me want to dive in!! Funny thing about the seals popping out and back in. Mine does that once every couple of years. Normally after manouvering it at home, I'll start up in the morning to hear that lovely dry pump whine. Fill it up again and do a few lock to locks and it seals up again with barely no leaks. The second and last time it did it was when the temperatures dropped a couple of months ago. My mechanic had the same problem with his 164 too...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
26,810 Posts
I assumed the tensioner only saw duty when the tension needed to be adjusted for some reason, like changing the belt. But it sounds like you're saying it needs to be free to move to keep the belt in tension during normal operation? If so, I guess I'd better figure out why my tensioner is frozen.

Jason
Sort of saying that but it appears unlike Timing belt tensioner eccentric pivot it seems serpentine tensioner eccentric is locked down once belt tension set so kind of hard to figure out why shock strut in system.

Any 24v Alfisti had any experience here?

When I did Myron's Timing belt I found I also had to loosen serpentine Allen head bolt to compress to get belt off and then let extend a little to insert drift pin to hold it. Then after Timing belt process done I had to slightly retract serpentine shock cylinder to remove drift pin to let cylinder extend to retension belt.

I also used same weighted arm with serpentine adapter to set tension then locked allen head bolt down again. Seems weird that you would lock down eccentric so shock cylinder no longer can move.

Did Alfa have second thoughts are design of system?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Ok folks, nothing like reviving a 10-year old thread. I drove the Q4 around for 50 miles or so last weekend, parked it in the garage, and the next day found a moderate puddle of ATF on the floor. Pulled wheel and liner, and a slow weep is coming from the front shaft seal on the PS pump. So the question is: is this a common failure mode and should I just send it out for a regular old rebuild? There was no noticeable PS pump groan (and I know what that sounds like in other cars). Car was parked for over a decade and I am just combing through all the gremlins as I put her back into regular operation. This failure does not surprise me - the system was drained for many years until a couple of years ago.

On a separate note, I know the Q4 is not supposed to use ATF in the Viscomatic / PS system. I have the right fluid for it, but the car came with ATF in the Visco / PS system when I bought it, and I've been hesitant to flush it. Maybe this is the right time to do that.

Any feedback appreciated before I default to just exploring a vanilla rebuild.

Thanks,
Karl
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,524 Posts
You might be able to try the Lucas Power Steering Stop Leak additive as some of us have successfully used in our 12V 164s. It is suppose to swell the seals slightly to, in effect, tighten them up of the shaft. Certainly worked in my 91S thousands of miles ago when I found that the fluid level was dropping in the system, leaking a little somewhere. Nothing to lose except time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
423 Posts
As the Q4 uses the same fluid for the PS and 4WD I would NOT use any type of stop leak!

Have a look at this thread and try to make up your own mind - I believe there are also some threads about PS leakage on the site:

I would have the pump reconditioned, as with - hopefully - some regular use again, I think it would quite fast become a problem.

Btw. good that you are getting it back on the road, it deserves it and you will enjoy it :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,524 Posts
"As the Q4 uses the same fluid for the PS and 4WD I would NOT use any type of stop leak! "

Is the fluid shared between the steering and the drive, or is it just the same type? If only same type, probably should be no problem, as then the situation is just the same as for the 12V here in the US, where the steering system and the transmission/diff both use similar ATF (although some do use regular gear oil in the transmission).

And we know the Lucas stop leak does work in the 12V steering for stopping small leaks.

If the fluid is indeed shared somehow (I don't know anything about the 4WD, was assuming fluid not shared), then forget about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Del,

It is a shared system the Q4. I rather agree - a little too nervous for a stop leak in the Viscomatic system, and I think the leak is a little much for a stop leak. It's dripping and leaving a pool. I described it as moderate. A couple foot diameter over the course of a week...

It is good to know that works to some extent though :) I have a more conventional Alfa 12V as well.

I found a rebuilder, Straight Line Steering in San Jose, CA (referred from Power Brake - they don't to steering anymore). Spoke with them. They offered to look for a rebuild kit - that would be the first step. I saw reference in this thread to 9939873, used in both 12V and 24V 164's? I presume it's different for the Q4, but I'm not sure where this info is found in EPER - I took a look through. Any leads?

Thanks!
Karl
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
285 Posts
I have no experience with the Q4s, but...

The pump in your picture looks identical to the ZF PS pump I have in my 1993 Audi S4. In that car, the PS pump provides pressure and flow for both the PS rack and the pressurized brake system. Looks like the Q4 uses the dual pump circuits for PS rack and the viscous coupling business.

The Audi pump (Audi pn 051-145-165-LX) takes the special mineral fluid (Audi pn G002000 or CHF 11S common equivalent) - I'm guessing that the Q4 likely takes the same type fluid? PS Fluid or ATF where the mineral fluid is spec'd is a big no-no. Leaks are common in the Audi pumps, and I've replaced many of the "X" plug orings, in particular. When you go back to the original spec fluid, you'll likely need to flush it a few times to get all the old stuff out.

If you can verify that the ZF pump used on your Q4 is the same as the one used in the Audi URS4 cars, it will open the door to more resources and parts availability.

Rebuilt pump available here:

Info regarding seals and pump function here:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
423 Posts
It could be the same as the Audi, as the model years are similar, but different to FWD 164's. I had one rebuilt, but they did it all. Maybe Alfissimo can help out. Here are the part numbers for the pump:
1611961
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
423 Posts
I found some photos of my Q4 pump. Looks similar to the Audi versions.
1611970


1611971


1611972
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
423 Posts
Btw the green oil used in Citroën hydraulics also works in the 4WD for the Q4.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
285 Posts
Here are a couple pics of the pump in my '93 Audi S4.

Data plate does show different pn (8691-955-159 vs 8691-955-133) and bar (120 vs. 100) rating than the Q4 pump Allan provided pictures of. So, these don't appear to be identical.

Overall outside physical casting appears identical though, or at least substantially similar, suggesting that a seal kit might interchange, at least maybe for the suspected leaky shaft seal. Its difficult to tell for sure, without having both in hand and comparing.
 

Attachments

1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top