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Discussion Starter #1
hello,

so i finally got around to beginning swapping out 5 speed tranny this week as I had some down time at work. Got it all disassembled and pulled tranny...

i went to look at new(used) tranny and I noticed that I could not move the gear selector lever, where on the tranny I just removed the gear selector lever moved easily.

could this be because the new/used tranny has sat for so long? or is something weird?

should I be able to move gear selector with my hands?

thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Transmissions when tested...were they both out of the car? Or one tested in car and one out of car?
Yes. Both are out of the car. One has been sitting around out of a car drained of fluid for at least 6 months.
 

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My experience with a new rwd trans out of the car was that it was not too smooth to move through the gears.

If it was a known good transmission, I don't think I would worry about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
i have the vice grips of the gear selector shaft and still can not move it. there must be some kind of locking mechanism. i will have to research more tomorrow. im definitely not putting it in the car until I know for sure that it is good....lots of work



took a pic of the vice grips on the shaft just so one can visualize it, but cant figure out how to put it on here.
 

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Did/does new used tranny have the black plastic cover snapped on over shift linkage?

Is item 2 the shaft you put vise grips on?

I suspect if that cover was missing which it usually is since it has to come off to get at one of the bell housing mounting bolts the item 2 shifter rod has gotten frozen in items 12 and 14 mounting bushings.

Can you push and pull items 9 and 2 levers up and down against item 15 spring tension?

Also is item 3 shifter rod free to move in case bushings (not shown here)?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Did/does new used tranny have the black plastic cover snapped on over shift linkage?

Is item 2 the shaft you put vise grips on?

I suspect if that cover was missing which it usually is since it has to come off to get at one of the bell housing mounting bolts the item 2 shifter rod has gotten frozen in items 12 and 14 mounting bushings.

Can you push and pull items 9 and 2 levers up and down against item 15 spring tension?

Also is item 3 shifter rod free to move in case bushings (not shown here)?
Thanks for reply Steve,

the cover was not missing...however the shifter rod # 3 was stuck inside the sleve #4 and I had to use some PB blaster to get it undone.

#9 and #2 were free to move up and down with the spring...it seems like it moves a little more than the one in the transmission I just removed.

I actually seperated #4 from #9 and put the vicegrips on #9 to try to move #2 left and right.

I sprayed some PB blaster in and around the shaft so I will check it later and hopefully u were correct and the selector shaft is frozen in the collar. it looks easy to remove so I can take the one out of the tranny I removed and compare and contrast it with the tranny I am putting in.

fingers crossed
 

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Only collar 14 spring 15 and maybe if not frozen bushing 12 will come out the hole in case. Shaft 2 will not come out from top.

But if shaft 2 moves up and down but not left to right I am afraid you have internal shifting problem

The up and down movment of shaft 12 is how you can select either the 1-2, 3-4 or R-5 internal shift forks.

Did you try pulling up and trying to shift those two gears?

Did you push down to shift those two gears, too?

If none will work up, middle or down position you have something messed up internally probably one of the three or 4 shifting pawls items 8, 12 (2each) and item 18. They are internal in between rods 1, 7 and 13 and only accessible after you disassemble tranny. Top fork in pix is 1-2, middle is 3-4 and bottom is R-5. Only 3 pawls on a 12v tranny.

You can easily remove item 1 in second pix 5th gear end case to see if something is hung up there but only other thing you can easily do is remove item 19 small oval shaped steel plate over three shifter springs and detent balls. I believe items 17, 22, and 11 are 24v tranny specific for reverse gear lock out. I really am not sure how that works as 12v does not have it and shop manual really does not cover it correctly or show it in disassembly process. So you should compare where it is on case with both trannys to see if that could pose a problem like you are having.
 

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Let me know if you need any internal parts. I have a box of them. Safety pawls are hard to get a hold of, but I think I have some. I had a gearbox lock up because the mechanic forgot to put them in when he had it open for the input shaft bearing upgrade work. Most likely though your problem is rust and lack of use. Maybe you can free it up.
Do make sure you have the upgraded input roller bearing though before trying to use this trans. Easy to check for it, just remove the throwout bearing slide sleeve/seal and look inside. I'm sure you probably know that detail though.
Charles
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Looks like I'm about to do a transmission disassembly course!

Hello all, thanks for the help so far,

I tinkered around with the freshly removed tranny and the donor tranny for a smidge today and I noticed a couple of things.

First off, on the partially working tranny( no 1st gear and a bad 3rd gear synchro) that I just removed from running car, the speed selector shaft has a idle position, a down position and, and a up position. I can push the selector shaft down and it can rotate engaging gears, i can leave it in the middle(idle position) and it rotates engaging gears and I can pull the shaft up and it can rotate engaging gears.

In the donor tranny i noticed the following:

1st - In idle position the gear selector shaft wont rotate

2nd - when I pull the shaft up, it moves freely up. it wont rotate in this position either.

3rd - I can not push the speed selector shaft down.

so not matter what position, idle, up, or down, the shaft wont rotate... thus no gears can be engaged. why cant I push the shaft down????

Anyways looks like I am about to start a crash course in alfa romeo 5 speed transmission disassembly.

I am armed with the shop manual, which doesn't really intimidate me. I must remind myself that there are a finite number of parts, and I have 2 transmissions to pick and choose parts from, and maybe Charles has some parts as well if I cant find them amongst the parts I have.

The only special tool I need for disassembly is a caulk removal tool? I bet I can fabricate something.

Stay tuned. I will post pictures as soon as I figure out how to.

:chris:
 

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Kind of ironic but I was talking to dean at trail auto yesterday and we laughed about the ops saw " every used trans is good". Notwithstanding I am certain you will get this work done well and in the end, sit back with a cold beer and enjoy the feeling of " job well done and I did it"!!
 

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Unfortunately even if you could free it up, you would need to take it apart to find out why it is presently locked up. Could be missing safety pawls, and it's currently locked into two gears at once, or something along those lines. The shop manual is pretty good, so go for it. The biggest issue I run into is the shallow allen headed countersunk bolts holding the steel end end plate. It's just under the fifth gear assembly. I have since been told to tap those with a hammer and punch first to loosen them up. They are easy to strip the allen heads. Also be sure and work on this in a small clean room. The detent springs on that fifth gear like to go flying and you need to be able to find them if they get away. When removing the retention plate/cover in the center of that fifth gear the detent springs and rollers will want to be set free. I have a few threads on trans disassembly and a few notes as well on getting that fifth gear assembly back together with springs and detents.

You are right, no special tools needed to pull the thing apart other than I use a CV joint slide hammer to remove the stub axle on the left side of the diff.
Charles
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Disassembley accomplished !

Well, that wasn't so bad. Didn't break anything or lose anything either.
All of the internal parts were in the proper places. No broken pieces. Everything appears to be in good condition. I had a very hard time manually moving all of the shifting forks at first, then after a while i was able to get them to move by spraying a little PB blaster on the shafts and the actual parts that the forks attach to and move. My guess is that all of the moving parts have had no lubrication on them for long enough that they just wouldn't move easily.
Any ideas on that?

I'm going to inspect it one more time tomorrow and then reassemble it and fill it with trans oil. Should I use any kind of sealer between the casing parts? The manual says to wipe the contact surfaces with sealant (locktite S73) although I didn't see any remnants of anything except a black caulk like substance around the input shaft seal collar.
 

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Did you find the three little safety pawls? 12, 18 and 8 in Steve's exploded diagram. Very important as they prevent selection of two gears at once. The small one installs in the hole of the 3-4 shift rod, the other two on each side of that one. Install for those is through the fill hole using a magnet. I used Loctite 518 Anaerobic gasket maker, red in color. You need to use that instead of the green sealer Alfa used. I ordered mine from Midway Auto Supply online. Doesn't take much to make the seal and works very well. Looks like you have the roller input bearing, so your golden there. I would inspect the diff as well and the diff bearings if your this far into it. Do not lose the shim though or forget to put it back as it sets the preload on the diff carrier bearings. New carrier bearings make for a smooth quiet trans and they are not too expensive to buy at all.

DO carefully inspect the roll pin that retains the diff pin, if that thing has any play in it at all (roll pin or diff pin), fix it, cause when these diff pins come loose, the whole trans case gets destroyed when it comes through the case one day when your passing someone on the interstate!!!! BOOM, and your rolling to the side of the road, trans fluid all gone in a hurry and a big hole inside the bellhousing!

I'm not a transmission guy really, but I unfortunately have a lot of experience with the 164 transmission. I've experienced the low low of failures, and the high highs of fixing these and getting the car back on the road. Nice work getting that thing apart, not too hard, but still a lot of time consuming work.

You will need to order up: axle shaft seals (side specific), and large o rings for the axle seal flanges, and a new throwout bearing sleeve seal. Do not get just the seal, but the WHOLE sleeve with input shaft seal already installed. Grease up the external moving shifter parts and bushings, throwout sleeve and bearing. Unfortunately, I do not think you can get the sliding shift rod rubber boots anymore, NLA. I recommend using 75W-85 MTF GL-4 from any local source, I get mine from the Nissan dealer. Works better than anything else I have tried.

Make sure to install the heaviest detent spring with ball bearing on the 5th/Rev shift rod.

Not sure I would have set everything down on concrete as the grit will not be good once this gets back together and they are precision moving parts again.
Charles
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Pawls

I noticed that there are two different kinds of safety pawls. the two that go on either side of the 3 - 4 shift rod in the bottom of the housing. these have a groove one side. is that the same on the 12V cars? im assuming they only go in one way?

The other pawls, one on the bottom of the 3-4 shift rod , and one on the 5-R shift rod, are smaller.

Also, Steve on the diagram u showed with the item 17, 22, and 11... i have no idea where these are. I cant find them. Maybe they are inside the reverse lockout cable that screws into the top of the tranny.

I think that tomorrow I will disassemble the tranny that I pulled from the car.It doesn't shift into first gear and has the 3rd gear synchro crunch. The shifter on this one works fine. Maybe I will just take the shaft from the new/used tranny and put it into the old one, and also the 1st gear shift fork if that is indeed what is wrong with it.

Your right Chazz, I might as well check the differential stuff too, and order the seals and o rings.

Thanks for the info!
 

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24v shift fork pawls and springs not same as 12v it seems

One big with notch, one small
The 24v notched pawl not same as 12v.

Also this does not appear to apply to 24v as parts list shows same part number 5991749 for all three shift lever springs (item 3):

"Make sure to install the heaviest detent spring with ball bearing on the 5th/Rev shift rod."

See 24v tranny parts breakdown pages 95-107 in attached pdf file to this post http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/1240001-post2.html
 

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The safety pawls are basically the same as the 12V trans, the only difference being the groove in the larger pawl. I assume that's only used as an oil passage for smoother operation? To sort of hold some oil there so they can slide better. I'm only guessing here, but I'll bet it aids shifting and was probably one of the minor improvements of the later trans, look the same otherwise. Have no idea what the 17, 11, 22 items are or do. Are they related to the safety pawls or the fill hole in some way?
Charles
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
17, 11, 22 i found em

So in the manual it calls these a pawl, pin, spring. actually it is a pin spring and o ring.

they are located near the bottom of the 3-4 shift shaft just above where the bottom pawl goes. it corresponds to the pawl in the 5 - R shift fork. it is supposed to maintain the reverse speed pawl in a safe position and prevent dangerous movements of reverse speed fork.

the manual also shows the reverse speed pawl in the 5-R shaft when it is actually in the reverse shift fork.

im trying to wrap my head around this whole pawl system and how it works....getting close to understanding it.

ah..the joys of my day off.:yinyang:

p.s. the pawl shown at the bottom of the shift fork in picture is actually the one from the reverse speed fork. I am about to go hunting for the correct smaller one which i dropped into the differential housing. i can hear it a rattlin.
 

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You are definitely in new Alfa 164 tranny territory. So glad you are taking good notes and pictures.
 
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