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Hi Looking for some Input from other Alfisti, In the Market for my First Alfa Romeo I Really Like the Looks of the 91-93 S Class and the 94-95 Q Class 164 My Delema is,What is the Major Difference Between Them Other Than HP 200 vs 235. Is the Overall size of the Q vs S smaller between the two cars? also is newer Better? eg: Steppers,electrics,mechanical Thanks for your Help... Dr Alfredo
 

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The big difference is the engine. The Q has a four cam engine. This is a very powerful and smooth reving engine. With some easy mods one can get more than the 235hp. The S has a two cam engine, a single cam for each head. The exhuast values run off push rods. I owned an LS that also has the four camer this is a great engine, but it is hard on timimg belts and is big money to fix if one brakes. Any major engine work will be alot more for the four camer. There are very few Q and LS (4 camers) in this country, less than 5000 and maybe one in ten is a Q. The good news, for you, is there are quite a few up for sale lately.
 

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Well Thanks for the Heads up on the 4 Cammer, Here is another Question How often with Proper Maint does this happen? if you change your timming belts when required and other maint. Is there any advantage to the mechanicals other than the Motor like is the Steeper motor problem solved on the 94-95 and so on Thanks .........Dr Alfredo Romeo
 

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The problem with the timing belts is they need to be changed more othen than the alfa stated mantiance. It is not just the miles but also the age. Alot of cars broke belts at under 40kmiles at 4 to 5 years old. I was told to use 30k miles and three years as a safe guild line, But get it check every 10k, or more towards the end of the 30k and three years. It is the unknown that is scary and the fact the belts don't last the stated limits.
The engine and some styling is the only thing I no of that is different. Keep in mind it is not just a difference in horse power bewteen the two, but the 4camer is also alot smoother. It revs very nice and pulls away under power like nothing else I have driven.
There is also a problem with the cells in the center console display. They go bad and start to be unreadable I am told. My car didn't do this. This is only in 94-95 models. I have aslo heard that the stepper motors on the 94-95 is better and fewer needed replacing, but can't say for sure. I was told my car had it done under warranty before I got the car. The big thing about the four camers is don't be lazy about belt mantince. Don't think I don't like these cars,(the 4 camers) I do. They are very nice cars and drive very well. Oh and fast!
 

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Thanks for the Great Input I was Wondering If there are any Aftermarket belts like Gates that would fit or could be made for the car has anyone looked into this ? Thanks Alfredo~
 

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In addition to the engine, the 94 and 95's had some cosmetic differences. Chrome strip around the perimeter of the car above the bumpers on 94 and 95's. More prominent front grill. This led to a slightly crisper look to these cars, however, the 91-93's (which I own- a 93 L), have nicer color combinations and a more attractive dash. The tan colored interiors, if well maintained, remind you of a Ferrari inside. The quality of the leather is outstanding.
 

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Just an observation from an S owner. I thought I wanted to "step up" to the 24v Q, so I test drove a couple. My S is moderately modified, so the observations may be a little off for a stock S to Q comparison.

I find the 12v S engine rawer, with more sound and fury, and the sensation of more bottom-end torque (I say sensation, as the specs say otherwise). The 24v Q engine is smoother, with less drama, but ultimately a little more speed.

The 12v is certainly less scary in the t-belt department. In the end, I think the t-belt situation for the 24v kept the S in my garage. If you really want a unique 24v 164, maybe a Q4, like Leo and tpj have would be the thing- an all wheel drive 6-speed 164.
 

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2valve = more torq, sooner

Just an observation from an S owner. I thought I wanted to "step up" to the 24v Q, so I test drove a couple. My S is moderately modified, so the observations may be a little off for a stock S to Q comparison.

I find the 12v S engine rawer, with more sound and fury, and the sensation of more bottom-end torque (I say sensation, as the specs say otherwise). The 24v Q engine is smoother, with less drama, but ultimately a little more speed.

The 12v is certainly less scary in the t-belt department. In the end, I think the t-belt situation for the 24v kept the S in my garage. If you really want a unique 24v 164, maybe a Q4, like Leo and tpj have would be the thing- an all wheel drive 6-speed 164.

I agree that the S produces more torq, much sooner (fact!) but dies out at the top end where the 4 valve needs the revs to achieve the "higher' torque figures stated - I think by the time the 2 valve produces the torq, more speed is achieved sooner so the S will have a nice head start until around 70mph or so, at which point the Q will pass your ***! (but it doesnt matter as the S need not get any tickets way at the top there, what is this? the autobahn or what!!) anyway the experience is only fulfilling in the first few moments of the race, so by this time your friend is thinking that the 'other' guy is probably tryin to save face and willing to blow his 24v just to beat the 'winner' !! ok sorry folks but had to let that experience 'out' and this provided the perfect platform!!!! :D
 

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Sedate 12v 164 driver forever

So where have you been for almost 3 years since this thread started? I agree with you but will go one further in that I am a semi-sedate 164B driver until I get in my son's 164S or my 75 year old friend's 164LS w/AT. I am able to do enough with my B and L to smoke many an unsuspecting Bimmer, Audi or Ricer rocketeer.

I could get in trouble real fast with a steady diet of a 164S or 24v LS. I am even surer that a Q or Q4 ship would be my achilles heal.

If I would act my age I guess a new Ford Taurus would be my cup of tea. Since I have been rodding for 50+ years I guess my habits won't change but don't think that sedate sedan thing will be happening in my lifetime.

However, I chose to stay with 12v non-S because I can afford to maintain it both in repairs and court costs.
 

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I owned a L at one time. Nice car, made me want to own another 164. I dreamed of owning a Q and fortunately one came my way that I could afford. I was fortunate again to buy a 2nd Q. Both cars are awesome to drive. Linda and I went on a "spirited" drive with some folks out of Sacramento. I gave away 2 cylinders and a lot of horsepower trying to keep up with the M series Bimmers/500 series Mecedes in the group. The car did well. First time that I really was able to open the car up. The more I drove it hard the more I came to really appreciate what a fine car Alfa Romeo has built. Other than a few quirky electricals that have cropped up the cars are very reliable. The board here is a great resource for sorting out issues, should one arise.
All I need now is a set of GTA intake cams, Squadra chip and a set of drilled discs and Porterfield pads. :)
Whether you choose an S or a Q, you will really enjoy the car.

Now where is there a Q for sale that someone eluded to in an earlier post?
 

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The L is undervalued!

I own a 1991 164 L and love it to death. I have driven a Q (surprisingly the one velodedoc has right now) and its definately more refined, which in my eyes makes it a little more dull, but it is fast!. The steering was Volvo light, as were the brakes, still a very nice car though. If its reliability you want, a 12V model is the one to go for in my book. I have seen too many posts of people with 24V cars that have jumped time, some escape without injury, some do not. I also like the feel of the early cars, mine has nice heavy steering with plenty of feedback, car drives good, just went over 200,000 miles and I am now just about to do a front end rebuild, maybe even the rear as well if money permits. I am curious though how much lighter my steering feel will be with the new strut bearings after the rebuild, maybe these cars do have light steering, in which case it will not be quite as sweet in my book, love that heavy steering! Anyhow, depends on how much you are willing to spend. Lots of nice 164 L's can be had for not too much money, and the performance difference between that and an S model is debatable. The L will have more down low grunt, the S a bit more on top at the sacrifice of low end torque. I hear the squadra chips sharpen up the torque curve across the rev range, so this I imagine can make up for the loss of torque in the S motor. Again its all about what you want to spend, but 4K will get you a really nice L, I recommend them highly!
 

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Hi Looking for some Input from other Alfisti, In the Market for my First Alfa Romeo I Really Like the Looks of the 91-93 S Class and the 94-95 Q Class 164 My Delema is,What is the Major Difference Between Them Other Than HP 200 vs 235. Is the Overall size of the Q vs S smaller between the two cars? also is newer Better? eg: Steppers,electrics,mechanical Thanks for your Help... Dr Alfredo
Motor, interior are two big things that stick out with me on the differences.

I would not say one is better than the other. They are both equally great!

Steppers have been updated and rarely go wrong on the 24V.
The 24V is extremely advanced over the the 12V. That can cause more electrical issues, mainly ignition system. LCD display is a known problem but there is a fix for it which should last forever..., Timing belt changes are expensive. On average $1000.00. I always suggest not owning one if 1. you have no experienced 24V mechanic or 2. You are not mechanically inclined.
If you have an alfa mechanic and he has 0 experience on a 24V, I would be leery on having him work on it. That is my opinion and advice. It is a complicated engine and vehicle.
Parts are expensive, there are 2 timing belt idlers $79 each) that need to be replaced on a regular basis, timing belt pulley ($125) , tensioner ($245), serpentine belt tensioner ($80) with tensioner shock ($90) and 2 idler pulleys ($79 each) as well. Water pump $145. Timing belt is up in the $56 range, serp belt in that same range. Theres more but you get the picture.
The 12V is much easier to maintain with belts around $25, tensioner at $145, serp bearing which I have a fix for to last much longer, water pump $89.

Anyways, the Q is an amazing car that looks great, and performs like nothing on the road. If you can afford to keep it up, I suggest it. If you skimp it will be your worst nightmare.

Same with the 12V. The 12V is a great car as well. Maybe a bit on the older side but great motor as well and great car. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. It really comes down to what you want, can afford and availability! There are not a whole lot of Qs and not a whole lot of good S's out there anymore. if you have access to a good one then go for it.
Either one you will be pleased with if it was well taken care of by the PO.
Records are always good...

Ciao!
 

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thats it, project fire is ignited

So where have you been for almost 3 years since this thread started? I agree with you but will go one further in that I am a semi-sedate 164B driver until I get in my son's 164S or my 75 year old friend's 164LS w/AT. I am able to do enough with my B and L to smoke many an unsuspecting Bimmer, Audi or Ricer rocketeer.

I could get in trouble real fast with a steady diet of a 164S or 24v LS. I am even surer that a Q or Q4 ship would be my achilles heal.

If I would act my age I guess a new Ford Taurus would be my cup of tea. Since I have been rodding for 50+ years I guess my habits won't change but don't think that sedate sedan thing will be happening in my lifetime.

However, I chose to stay with 12v non-S because I can afford to maintain it both in repairs and court costs.

Alfisto, 1st of all, methinks that your habits SHOULD NOT change and power to you for stickin to it (wonder how the wife feels about these relationships....but thats another story)
So, being the 'sensible' beast that I am, I have had the opportunity of dumping many paycheq's into my original 'S' and sensibility is now going to be my motivation in my new project. I will turn an L into an S lookalike, manual of course and the first order of business is to find a beat up S (closing the deal sometime this week) and tow it home! Next, find the same color L (hoping for NERO this time as it looks more uniform with the body kit) and just transfer over the tranny and new clutch, master/slave etc etc (any help in this regard would be MUCH appreciated) and the body parts. The issue for me is to COMPLETELY eliminate the dashboard guts ( bleepin stepper motor cost me the most $/time last time, altho I rarely used the AC!!, and if theres a way to permanently set the fan to feet and windshield for heat, pls let me know) and front seats (recaro, but super light!, anyone with suggestions?) along with related weight reduction!! I called this chap (Alfa Omega?) in San Diego and also asked whether it was possible to remove the AC (about 70 fkn pounds in a front driver CANNOT BE GOOD) BUT since its attached to the same belt as waterpump it kinda burst my bubble as this would mean fabrication, new (if it exists) size belt and also the cost factor also would be an unknown - This came from my '99 318ti which was perfect for this as there was an AC belt by itself and this gave me about 5-10mpg on a full tank and I don't know why this is NOT an option in N America ( the integra type R had this delete option from the factory and this alone made me put down the $ - was like a 'dream' sale for the salesguy as I looked initially like a know it all ******* and I remember him rolling his eyes as he first saw me!) Anyway, no one!!!! can touch pinifarina in sex appeal and the 164 is the ultimate for me!!! So, anyone who has successfully removed the AC and is driving this daily, please let me know as much as possible as I plan on this! While most of the tranny will be new anyway, I want to address the LSD from quaife (a 'call' item $ wise so any used ones out there??) and with the weight loss, I am hoping to address the power loss from S to L engine but hoping to gain longevity and any other solutions to this would be, again, much appreciated!! I understand i would NOT need to butcher the fr struts with non S front end!!?? Is this a fact and which would be the best bet (koni, etc) along with a very modest lowering or maybe S springs??!! So this would leave me with a 164 that I can later upgrade to an S engine wise (cams, Q intake runners, I will be fabricating mandrel bent stainless exhaust from Hot Rod Scott's @ kipling and queensway, toronto, 1k last time for my S and the ***** got stolen after the perfect howl was achieved...I am getting angry again:mad:.....give me a moment>>>>>>>>>>back, funny how some beer calms situations down! ok so any advice and you all have a wonderful day ok!!
 

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Just a reply

Alfisto, 1st of all, methinks that your habits SHOULD NOT change and power to you for stickin to it (wonder how the wife feels about these relationships....but thats another story)
So, being the 'sensible' beast that I am, I have had the opportunity of dumping many paycheq's into my original 'S' and sensibility is now going to be my motivation in my new project. I will turn an L into an S lookalike, manual of course and the first order of business is to find a beat up S (closing the deal sometime this week) and tow it home! Next, find the same color L (hoping for NERO this time as it looks more uniform with the body kit) and just transfer over the tranny and new clutch, master/slave etc etc (any help in this regard would be MUCH appreciated) and the body parts. The issue for me is to COMPLETELY eliminate the dashboard guts ( bleepin stepper motor cost me the most $/time last time, altho I rarely used the AC!!, and if theres a way to permanently set the fan to feet and windshield for heat, pls let me know) and front seats (recaro, but super light!, anyone with suggestions?) along with related weight reduction!! I called this chap (Alfa Omega?) in San Diego and also asked whether it was possible to remove the AC (about 70 fkn pounds in a front driver CANNOT BE GOOD) BUT since its attached to the same belt as waterpump it kinda burst my bubble as this would mean fabrication, new (if it exists) size belt and also the cost factor also would be an unknown - This came from my '99 318ti which was perfect for this as there was an AC belt by itself and this gave me about 5-10mpg on a full tank and I don't know why this is NOT an option in N America ( the integra type R had this delete option from the factory and this alone made me put down the $ - was like a 'dream' sale for the salesguy as I looked initially like a know it all ******* and I remember him rolling his eyes as he first saw me!) Anyway, no one!!!! can touch pinifarina in sex appeal and the 164 is the ultimate for me!!! So, anyone who has successfully removed the AC and is driving this daily, please let me know as much as possible as I plan on this! While most of the tranny will be new anyway, I want to address the LSD from quaife (a 'call' item $ wise so any used ones out there??) and with the weight loss, I am hoping to address the power loss from S to L engine but hoping to gain longevity and any other solutions to this would be, again, much appreciated!! I understand i would NOT need to butcher the fr struts with non S front end!!?? Is this a fact and which would be the best bet (koni, etc) along with a very modest lowering or maybe S springs??!! So this would leave me with a 164 that I can later upgrade to an S engine wise (cams, Q intake runners, I will be fabricating mandrel bent stainless exhaust from Hot Rod Scott's @ kipling and queensway, toronto, 1k last time for my S and the ***** got stolen after the perfect howl was achieved...I am getting angry again:mad:.....give me a moment>>>>>>>>>>back, funny how some beer calms situations down! ok so any advice and you all have a wonderful day ok!!
Seeing how the S springs are nothing more then 164 Auto springs, I think if anything they just make the car understeer even more. If anything the rear end needs stiffening up to counteract the heavy V6 at the front. VW proved this in the first generation Rabbit and Scirocco, concentrate the roll stiffness at the rear of a FWD car to achieve balance, not the front! Having said that, the 164 handles well, though not even close to as good as my Peugeot, who wrote the book on FWD handling in the late 80's!
 

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true

ok lets get the guy that wrote the book in the 80's and do away with his family...jokes aside tho, i was hoping to address this with the biggest sway bars for the rr as i did with my S last time which made me forget i was driving FWD but remember i had to live with front weight bias for around 4yrs while I had the S and have had many cars/yrs since to contemplate solutions (ie could have beens!!) and with even less weight in the front from AC and seat removal, with the rr sway bar, i could do an even better job (I was NOT done with my OLD relationship and secretly hoped to transfer it to my son-I finally hav one from my wonderful wife-many threats to cough up a son 1ST then a girl....ok sorry another diff story) anyway, if I learned anything since, its that light weight solves MANY problems, unless u get hit-solved of course by having one truck which is body on frame and one ultra lite and a special 'lover' that needs ALOT of care and attention but rewards like no other ie 164 for me anyway!!! Have the ***** strip (AC, seats etc) and walk around like that ALL the time in the secret house (ie garage) So, pls provide as much info on this and any relevant info and I will supply on going updates and info as I proceed with my PROJECT!!
 

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I finally hav one from my wonderful wife-many threats to cough up a son 1ST then a girl....ok sorry another diff story)
LOL! :eek: I almost choked on my Hot Chocolate. :p (very funny)
 

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I was driving in Enrique's 95 Q. I started a conversation about HP. He said as the Q producedn 235 hp. After looking in the owners manual it stated 230hp. Now the S produces 200 hp, chip it you are at 210-212 hp. Not that much os a difference. Are these figures or is the owners manual incorrect?
 

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I was driving in Enrique's 95 Q. I started a conversation about HP. He said as the Q producedn 235 hp. After looking in the owners manual it stated 230hp. Now the S produces 200 hp, chip it you are at 210-212 hp. Not that much os a difference. Are these figures or is the owners manual incorrect?
Pretty much, really 229hp for Q. The data is fairly accurate.
I agree that there is not much difference once chipped. The S flies with a chip, another simple bump in Hp is a port and polish. I figure I am in the 215+ range at the moment with euro no cat exhaust. I do not feel that I need anymore hp at this point, I am satisfied with it. Now the Q with a chip with 10 more hp is nice as well but again all of this comparing of the 2 is hard as they are different beats. One is more refined, more solid, more modern interior and motor etc... The S is a little bit less refined but still very refined for that model year. I have not seen many other cars that have a base model for example as well equipped as a 164. Executive saloon for sure.
There is a lot of the same technology shared between them. Just choose what you like and do it. Like I said the Q is going to be more per year to maintain and find a mechanic that knows these cars.

ciao!
 

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Alfisto, 1st of all, methinks that your habits SHOULD NOT change and power to you for stickin to it (wonder how the wife feels about these relationships....but thats another story)
So, being the 'sensible' beast that I am, I have had the opportunity of dumping many paycheq's into my original 'S' and sensibility is now going to be my motivation in my new project. I will turn an L into an S lookalike, manual of course and the first order of business is to find a beat up S (closing the deal sometime this week) and tow it home! Next, find the same color L (hoping for NERO this time as it looks more uniform with the body kit) and just transfer over the tranny and new clutch, master/slave etc etc (any help in this regard would be MUCH appreciated) and the body parts.
This is an easy job, I have done it. I have 2 S's that I am parting out if interested? I sold one lower spoiler kit already and have 1 left. E-mail me for pricing.
The issue for me is to COMPLETELY eliminate the dashboard guts ( bleepin stepper motor cost me the most $/time last time, altho I rarely used the AC!!, and if theres a way to permanently set the fan to feet and windshield for heat, pls let me know) and front seats (recaro, but super light!, anyone with suggestions?) along with related weight reduction!!
So are you making a race car out of this thing? I don't see the point in ruining what the 164 is? It is by no means a race car and removing the A/C unit would be money wasted IMO. May gain 4-5 hp more at most by removing the A/C pulley from the system. Might as well to the power steering too.
I called this chap (Alfa Omega?) in San Diego and also asked whether it was possible to remove the AC (about 70 fkn pounds in a front driver CANNOT BE GOOD) BUT since its attached to the same belt as waterpump it kinda burst my bubble as this would mean fabrication, new (if it exists) size belt and also the cost factor also would be an unknown - This came from my '99 318ti which was perfect for this as there was an AC belt by itself and this gave me about 5-10mpg on a full tank and I don't know why this is NOT an option in N America ( the integra type R had this delete option from the factory and this alone made me put down the $ - was like a 'dream' sale for the salesguy as I looked initially like a know it all ******* and I remember him rolling his eyes as he first saw me!) Anyway, no one!!!! can touch pinifarina in sex appeal and the 164 is the ultimate for me!!! So, anyone who has successfully removed the AC and is driving this daily, please let me know as much as possible as I plan on this!
The main reason they did not offer a no A/C option was due to the fact that this was and is still a luxury automobile not an Acura or 318ti, not even in the same league. A/C is standard and if it was an option I seriously doubt any alfa buyer would opt for no A/C, wrong demogrpahic
While most of the tranny will be new anyway, I want to address the LSD from quaife (a 'call' item $ wise so any used ones out there??) and with the weight loss, I am hoping to address the power loss from S to L engine but hoping to gain longevity and any other solutions to this would be, again, much appreciated!!
You will need to put the most money into the LSD due to the fact that they need at least 25 units for more to make them again. Thats a lot of money for an LSD which would be great on the car but clearly is not that big of a deal with us owners. Would be nice to have one and you could do an OE one from a lancia but thats a ton of cash as well. Not sure what you mean by power loss from S to L, Different cams, pistons, exhaust, ECU are the main things that make the L lower in Hp. Don't disregard the L motor though, You can bump up an L motor to be different beast from the S. The chip alone gives it 201hp and tons of torque which makes it extremely quick off the line due to the L motor characteristic's. The L motor has it's perks too. My suggestion is buy an S motor with ECU.

I understand i would NOT need to butcher the fr struts with non S front end!!?? Is this a fact and which would be the best bet (koni, etc) along with a very modest lowering or maybe S springs??!!
With a koni an L struts you need to destroy them. and use the housing for the new koni inserts on the front, rears are complete. B&G springs are a mild lowering spring but offer great handling. 1.25" lowering or stock S springs is good as well. Much better handling and comfort with koni over stock. BTW stock L/LS struts are Discontinued so Koni may be only option in the future once Sach's runs out of struts

So this would leave me with a 164 that I can later upgrade to an S engine wise (cams, Q intake runners, I will be fabricating mandrel bent stainless exhaust from Hot Rod Scott's @ kipling and queensway, toronto, 1k last time for my S and the ***** got stolen after the perfect howl was achieved...I am getting angry again:mad:.....give me a moment>>>>>>>>>>back, funny how some beer calms situations down! ok so any advice and you all have a wonderful day ok!!
Q runners will not work on a 12V and larger intake runners willa ctually cause the motor to loose Hp or at least make all available power @5000rpm+ and that will ruin the whole thing, I have headers and exhaust systems for the S already that will most likely be cheaper to buy than have made and the other thing is they have been tested, hand built in germany and TUV approved. They are chromed as well come with all flex pipes and so forth. Run a euro exhaust with no cat if you can to produce a fast S. You need to read my exhaust post sometime as I have a feeling your looking to go larger on pipe diameter which will not produce much on the as and in-fact again bring that power range up higher than it already is in the bandwidth. Remember the S motor has most of it's power in the mid to upper range, just to put this simply.
here is the link:http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/38747-exhaust-chat.html


Anyways Larger intake, cone filters in place of OEM filter box and so forth will gain nothing, exhaust in OEM diameter will gain more than a 3" aftermarket exhaust.
I have seen people try their hardest to do these kinds of things will no gains and in-fact reducing Hp.
for now, I would do a chip. 16hp gain with a ton of torque. Probably the best chip for the 164 as far as tunability (if that is a word?)

Good luck let me know if I can help.
J
 
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