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1969 GTV 1750 restoration

178K views 574 replies 80 participants last post by  gprocket 
#1 ·
Hello out there...Im very excited with this new project and Im going to be doing everything the correct way and no expense spared....I have stripped my vehicle...done a full inventory of what ws removed, identified what can be reconditioned, what can be thrown away and what is missing and/or needed to be replaced......this has taken me 2 weeks..... and now I have everything bagged labelled and the shell of the car ready for body work......I have been very lucky, this car has been garaged for many years it is very straight and has minimal rust!!!

I am going down the chemical approach for paint strippping to bear metal....

Anyway...this week end I was fortunate to come across a fantastic example of original 1750 wooden steering wheel. It also has a signature beautifully engraved in it…"VG Hellebore" and Im not sure of the name I think its German or something…….anybody know?

Anyway, my immediate problem with the steering wheel is the centre badge seems to be damaged but it seems to be pressed into the plastic surround….I noticed replacements on the internet, but I cannot for the life of me see how to remove the current badge from the plastic surround, without damaging the plastic cap.

Does anyone have any tips on how this is removed?


The badge in question:

Symbol Number Cross Metal Emblem
 
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#6 ·
Hello !

I am no Papajam, but i think Hellebore was the original supplier of some steering wheels for Alfa Romeo, I have seen the description on an original GTA steering wheel, and it is also on my replica GTA steering wheel...
 
#7 ·
Yeah Hellebore made the steering wheels for ALfa Romeo of which the 1750 GTV steering wheel is the nicest. Now can we move on a see some photos of your strip down.
 
#8 ·
no interesting photos as yet...just started stripping and will have it in the body shop in 2-3 weeks time, whwre I hope to catalogue some great photos...the colour is originally that mustard yellow colour - an educated guess would suggest its Giallo Ochre or something...but I am going to go Alfa Red and Tan interior....

This is my first project...Im new at this so bear with me..

Gentelmen I understand that there has been a number of threads around regarding the correct colour Red but does anyone have the definitive conclusion to the correct colour specifications for the authentic alfa romeo red....?

from the sounds of things it seems that there must have been a number of variations of red?
 
#14 ·
no interesting photos as yet...just started stripping and will have it in the body shop in 2-3 weeks time, whwre I hope to catalogue some great photos...the colour is originally that mustard yellow colour - an educated guess would suggest its Giallo Ochre or something...but I am going to go Alfa Red and Tan interior....

T?

What do you guys think about this??
I don't think very much of this ? Sorry but,

PLEASE DON"T go changing a series1 Giallo Ochre 1750 to boring old predictible, lets be like everyone else and paint it resale no imagination RED:eek::eek::eek::eek:

For myself and I know I am not alone here, would KILL for an original Series 1 Giallo Ochre 1750. It is by far the coolest colour you could ever have a 1750 in. Why do you think that they chose a Giallo Ochre car for the original series 1 promotional material ? Because its bloody cool!!!!!

Changing the colour of a car that you are planning to do a no expense restoration is also not a very smart thing to do, it will blight the value of the car. ViN numbers can be checked with Alfa by potential buyers and originality buff don't like it when they see that a car has been changed radically from its original colour that it was painted in the factory.

Giallo Ochre is a very in demand but exceedingly hard to find colour on original 1750s. Red one one the other hand are a dime a dozen.

Moreover you have suggested that you will use tan for the interior. Regardless of whether you take my advice or do the crimminal act of changing to red, DO NOT use a tan interior on either of those to colour choices. The reason being that ALFA were very strict with how they colour schemed the cars. Basically in short red & giallo ochre got black interiors. Green, Blue and silver cars got tan interiors and white cars either had black or red interiors. They did it for a very good reason, Red 1750's with tan interiors look strange just as cars in blue look strange with black interiors.
This is another thing that the purists will curse you for.

Look I know it is none of my business what you do, but if you car is so original and straight as you say it is and you plan on doing a major resto, then HONESTLY the best course you can take is to keep that car as close to original as possible. Please please stop for a day or to and take a read in the GT section of this BB and see what people are doing. Also check the restoration section, correct colour schemes for 105s is covered extensively there.

I would just hate to see an original s1 1750 have these sort of incorrect changes. I lot of nasty things were done to these cars in the 80's and if you have a nice original one which survived that period without being butchered than you have a duty to keep it that way. Originalirty will become more and more important as the value of these cars go up, and the ones that have been kept true to how that individual car rolled out of the factory will be at a premium.

I can't tell you what to do, but please stop and have a read through the BB first before you go any further.

Ps there is nothing wrong with a 1750 engine, it is actually a more torquey free reving engine than its two litre equivalent and doesn't give the head gasket trouble that the 2000 did. I would tweak the 1750 engine before I resorted to switching it
 
#11 ·
I am also embroiled in a debate between my father the traditionalist and my engineering colleagues. The following confgiuration has been suggested fior my 1969 1750 GT restoration where my intention is to drive it regularly and not as much a Sunday car:

1. Drop the 1750 engine for the 2 litre due to better torque characterisitcs of the 2 litre engine.
2.Maintain the 1750 gearbox and differential combination coupled with the 2 litre engine.
3. during the engine rebuild; replace with high compression performance pistons kit for better perfomance.
4. also modifiy the exhaust valve seats to take premium unleaded fuel...
5. one of my engineers has designed and prefected / tested a high perfomance but also road driving practical cam design and suggested we include this in the build...

Im trying to get it correct the first time so any feeedback or opinons from those who have been faced with these similar configuration decision points 1 to 5 would be greatly appreciated....

My father being a traditionalist is against all these modifications and suggests to keep the engine original....I can appreciate this also from a historical preservation approach by being sensitive to the design but why not couple it with small improvements and practicalities as well???

What do you guys think about this??
 
#12 ·
Hello FMD159....so what model 69 GT Veloce do you have? Is it the 105.51 US model? or the Euro model? When you say you want to do it the right way, what are you aiming for with your car....back to it's original as delivered condition (or at least as close as possible given the parts availability dilemma) ...or.......do you want to turn it into a GTV that you always wanted to have?
 
#15 ·
Hey phil.
I sort of agree with you.
I had a 1973 1600 junior in that yellow ocre colour for many years.I didnt really like the colour untill i repainted it.Looked fantastic.I sold it before i finished it.I still see it and cry cause it looked so good.
Everyone had their opinions on what they want to do=colour of paint and trim etc.I would rather buy an original car and paint it back to the original colour + trim.As you know,I get to see a lot of 105s in various conditions and sometimes am asked for valuations.Originality makes the money.I remember your green 1750,and thought what a great restoration it would be if someone bought it and did it back to original colours.Yes,there are many colours that people paint their cars,but the original colours look fantastic when painted
new.Just my 3 cents worth-inflation.

Robert
 
#17 ·
While I don't really like the Giallo Ochre color, if you happen to have a 105.51, you have a rare car. There were only 640 built, so just based on that, its worth keeping correct. The 1750 isn't a bad engine, it does get good mileage, and goes ok. A freshly rebuilt one might go better than mine (mine sat for 30 years, but still doesn't leak) but they go ok. I'd say you could get away with doing some suspension work, and other stuff that could be undone in a weekend without anyone knowing the better would be good. Thats what I'm doing with mine, however I'm also trying to keep it as original as possible. I'm also going to install a set of panasports, but beyond that I'm not going to do anything.

Do what you want, but I have found that a really correct car gets lots of attention, even if it isn't perfect. I understand the wish to build the car you really want, but keeping a 105.51 correct will be worth it in the long run.

just my $.02

Will
 
#18 ·
I know papjam is going to have an interesting opinion on this when he logs on.
 
#19 ·
I'm with ya' Phil. Giallo Ochre is a very cool colour. Second only to Bluette :D

There's a particular Giallo Ochre 1750 kicking around Brisbane wearing a set of Momo wheels, and even though the paint is a bit aged it's looks fantastic! Why would you want to change it?!

Back to FMD's original question on the steering wheel badge...
I bought one of the pictured badges from Classic Alfa as well. This is a self-adhesive badge, but the original is set in with some contact adhesive. Removal is simple - Get a sharp tipped knife, and use the tip to lift the old one out of the wheel centre. The contact adhesive will break away from the back of the badge and keep some of the silver paint from the old badge with it. Scrape all this out as well and stick in your new badge. This took me about 2 minutes to type, but only about 20 seconds to do.

Then, (and this bit is important, so read carefully)...
A Giallo Ochre 105 is a chick magnet. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT paint your car any other colour! ;)
 
#20 ·
Gentlemen....I wish to thank you for your passionate responses, much appreciated and seriously considering your advice understandibly...I guess this colour just put me off because the current paintwork has deteriorated considerably...I guess I could warm to it if there was a good example of a freshly finished one in this colour.....maybe a metallica variation???

are there any good examples...of pics on the internet of this colour done on a coupe anywhere...

im married so the chick magnet is now biggie...but I definitely want style....!!!
 
#22 ·
Try this link for a start plenty of Giallo Ochre 1750's to see here. Two Aussie ones at least and a UK photo that I posted.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=44265

Just surf around our BB, search under Giallo Ochre in the GT link, bingo.

I assume from your mail that you are in Australia ?

Tell us about the car, some of us might already know it and can tell you about it. Do you have a photo of it before you stripped it ?

Please keep her original spec. On this BB we have people all over the world to advise, encourage, help and assist you in doing this resto properly from start to finish.

Phil
 
#21 ·
colin....thanks for the advice on the steering badge...I have done this now and yes it popped off quite nicely...but surely there is somewhere local (australia) to purchase the badge from??? How much did it set you back once converting from pounds to AUD (including freight).....I recently did the numbers and it didnt seem very cost effective.....
 
#23 ·
There are a few places to buy 105 parts from in OZ, but they charge like wounded bulls! Many secondhand items here are more expensive than new stuff from the UK.

I could mention some local names here who gouge prices, but I occasionally require their services so I won't.

So if I need/want something new I buy it from overseas. I shop around and do my math first, but most (not all) 105 parts are definitely cheaper from offshore.

For example, I can get a Milano badge (plastic) from Classic Alfa for about the equivalent of AUD25.00. If I buy new from any of the local parts suppliers, I would pay from $60 to $75 for the same badge.
I never buy just one part though. I always wait until I need at least a handfull of items to save on postage.

When my car was badly damaged in an accident, sourcing second-hand parts such as tail lights and badges etc; from local suppliers was much more expensive than importing new parts from the UK. Unbelievable, but true!
So I brought in the new parts of course, and I continue to do so. Doing it this way has saved me well over $1000 in total and I have new gear.

And yes I include the freight in my calculations, as I do the ridiculous 15.5% taxes and customs duty we have to pay for imported items. (5% customs duty, and 10% GST compounded on top of that.) We're not supposed to pay the 5% duty for parts for cars over 30 years old, but sometimes it's not worth the trouble of arguing. It depends on the amount. Unfortunately, many OZ customs officers don't know this until it is pointed out to them.

Here are some links to pics of cars in your colour. There would be more in the Post a Pic of your Alfa section of the BB.
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?p=384533&highlight=Giallo+Ochre#post384533

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?p=298584&highlight=Giallo+Ochre#post298584

Glad to be of help with the badge.

Cheers,
-Col-
 
#24 ·
Colin / Phil thanks for your advice and feedback today...I am slowly warming to this color and can understand that I should keep it original..

what about then engine though I was thinking of going 2000 as opposed to 1750....from originality perspective its not good but there really isn't much difference visually apart from the mechanical capacity which you cannot see, between the two engines...you could sell it as a 1750...majiority would not know the difference...!

Do you see the benefit of going to the 2000.....? I was told from an engineering colleague whom has been working and racing Alfa for 40+ years that the 2000 provides more torque and would be better suited as a daily drive......what do you think?

The vehicle I am working on has been under a blanket in a workshop for a good part of 20years....it is straight as an arrow with minimal rust spots....I doubt you would know this vehicle...prior to this my father owned it for a period of time and he cant even remember how long!!!
 
#27 · (Edited)
what about then engine though I was thinking of going 2000 as opposed to 1750....from originality perspective its not good but there really isn't much difference visually apart from the mechanical capacity which you cannot see, between the two engines...you could sell it as a 1750...majiority would not know the difference...!

Do you see the benefit of going to the 2000.....? I was told from an engineering colleague whom has been working and racing Alfa for 40+ years that the 2000 provides more torque and would be better suited as a daily drive......what do you think?
The 1750 is really a 1.8 engine so the 2.0 is 10% bigger so you will get a 10% improvement. On the race track that is a huge improvement (the source of your advice) but would you really notice it that much for a daily driver?

The real question is that you have a really nice car that you are obviously going to a lot of trouble with. What do you want the car to be when you've finished? To keep it original will greatly increase it's value as a working piece of history. To make it a competitive race car will increase its value. To do a bit of both will make it neither.

If you change the engine then most likely when you come to sell such a nice car it will go to someone who knows these cars so you can't pass it off as original when it isn't.

My opinion is that for a daily driver a 1.8 engine is good enough for 90% of situations (ask yourself how many times you will be over 5,000rpm). A rebuilt and mildly tweaked 1.8 with tuned webers and cams will be equal to a standard 2.0. (This advice is from me that wants to put a 3.2 V6 GTA engine into a 105 but I would find a junk car to do it in and not ruin a nice one.)

Of course if it is going to be your car for a long time then to heck with the next owner and put in a nice twin spark 2000 and keep the original engine so the next owner can play with it. What do you want the car to be?

Good luck with it and keep us posted.
 
#28 ·
No one has said it yet so I guess I will. The 1750 is a better engine period! I really think you may be wrong about people not knowing that its a 2 Liter engine as opposed to a 1750. There are actually alot of visual differences that to the average GTV enthusiast will be noticable immediately. How likely is someone who knows nothing about alfas going to buy an old one. It happens but not often. Anyway my .02 cents enjoy your car but I would put some serious thought into the color change. Giallo Ochre is great. Your going to love driving it no matter the engine or color so don't take things too serious either.
 
#30 ·
Lots of great feedback in this post! The only thing not touched on is the valve seats. And it's quite simple. Alfa valve seats are already hardened so nothing needs to be done. :) US Alfa owners have been using unleaded fuel for 30 years with no ill effects (exept perhaps for the drop in octane over the years :rolleyes:).

An Alfista could tell the difference between engines in a nanosecond; the 2l has a spin on oil filter, the 1750 doesn't.
 
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