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This car seems to be in remarkably good, original condition!
Other than the incorrect rear axle limiting straps (this thread shows what they looked like) there isn't much that has been altered -- even the rubber boots at the ends of the seat rails are there.

An interesting detail is how the spare wheel well interfaces with the rear valance (pics #89 and #90), which is different from most other cars I've seen. In those cars, the spare wheel well was like a tub, which left a small gap of 3/8" to 1/2" between the tub and the valance -- but that turned out to be prone to rust as well, as wet dirt and muck tended to accumulate in this gap. I've seen other cars with no gap, but always thought they were either bad rust repairs or rust repairs by body men who had no cars or pictures to compare what the area is supposed to look like. In this case, the area looks fairly original (but the black paint leaves room for a chance of an old repair), and I think there's a good possibility that how this area was dealt with in the factory may have some variations or variability with respect to how sheet metal pieces fit together or who worked on them.

The fact that the pedal box, the rear seat pans and the rear foot wells seem to have very little or no rust whatsoever is stunning. These areas are as prone to rust (or even more) than the rocker panels which rot from the inside out (the starting of which can be seen in pic #80) but the previous owner must have been smart enough to drill two weep holes into the bottom panel in that area (and the car was probably not exposed to a lot of rain or humidity anyways).

None of the things I see are critical (the rust doesn't seem to be structural yet). I probably wouldn't even deal with the rust holes right now, but a full restoration eventually will be inevitable (in, say, 5 to 20 years). For now, I would suggest to just get the car running and keep it original as long as possible.
 

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Oh, what I forgot to mention: Santa did a great job with the choice of new camera -- the pictures are really good!
 
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Keith

Great reference photos but don't forget your plan on this car ,

"My plan is to do no harm and keep all the patina. I want to make it mechanically reliable, replace the foam in the seats, repair some rust in the rockers, polish the original paint and leave it as is."

The car looks like it could be in identical condition to mine, which is fully roadworthy, with a rebuilt engine but needing a full respray and a bit shabby underneath. When I could I do many shows in mine , slow track days including a drive from the UK to SPA Franco-champs in Belgium.

Stop dismantling it , put the engine back in and drive it and enjoy it! All the work you plan to do can be done with the car running, there is no structural rust , just character.

I will drive mine until I retire , 3 years and counting down, then take the 1-2 man years to restore it properly.

Obviously replace all rubber hoses and seals, but the rest looks good as is.

I see you have dismantled the pedals and master cylinders. You are in danger of having a lot of parts in boxes for the next 5 years

Ian
 

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Great photos Keith.
It's always hard to see the the underside of our cars, even on a lift, so these photos are very interesting and helpful.
I did notice the radio. Looks like the perfect period correct radio. I don't believe these cars came with radio's ?
Could you take a close up photo of the radio next time your clicking away ?


Andy
 

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Discussion Starter #25
This car seems to be in remarkably good, original condition!
Other than the incorrect rear axle limiting straps (this thread shows what they looked like) there isn't much that has been altered -- even the rubber boots at the ends of the seat rails are there.

An interesting detail is how the spare wheel well interfaces with the rear valance (pics #89 and #90), which is different from most other cars I've seen. In those cars, the spare wheel well was like a tub, which left a small gap of 3/8" to 1/2" between the tub and the valance -- but that turned out to be prone to rust as well, as wet dirt and muck tended to accumulate in this gap. I've seen other cars with no gap, but always thought they were either bad rust repairs or rust repairs by body men who had no cars or pictures to compare what the area is supposed to look like. In this case, the area looks fairly original (but the black paint leaves room for a chance of an old repair), and I think there's a good possibility that how this area was dealt with in the factory may have some variations or variability with respect to how sheet metal pieces fit together or who worked on them.

The fact that the pedal box, the rear seat pans and the rear foot wells seem to have very little or no rust whatsoever is stunning. These areas are as prone to rust (or even more) than the rocker panels which rot from the inside out (the starting of which can be seen in pic #80) but the previous owner must have been smart enough to drill two weep holes into the bottom panel in that area (and the car was probably not exposed to a lot of rain or humidity anyways).

None of the things I see are critical (the rust doesn't seem to be structural yet). I probably wouldn't even deal with the rust holes right now, but a full restoration eventually will be inevitable (in, say, 5 to 20 years). For now, I would suggest to just get the car running and keep it original as long as possible.
Thanks Ruedi.

Given how Dan was so particular about this car, and that those are literally cargo tie down straps cut to fit as axle limiting straps, I believe that the straps were meant to be temporary. I will certainly be replacing them with correct straps.

I don't think Dan had the vision, or understanding, to drill weep holes in the bottom. The excellent condition is more of a result of Dan's love and care for the car, his limited use of the car, evidence that it has been off the road since 1987 plus it has been on jack stands in a dry garage for the last ten years. Additionally, Oklahoma's climate is not hard on cars.

Here are some more pictures of the rear valance, with a comparison to the front valance. It is hard to get sharp pictures around the interior of the rear panels however this car has not had any repairs in the rear valance area.

As for the black paint, it appears to have been applied by the same person who painted the front valance. They are both painted with a brush, free hand, and it looks like they were running low on black paint in the back. Perhaps it was the painter's own initiative to match the rear of the car with the front.

Personally, I love all the little details and variances showing how each of these cars are so individual and made by hand.

Keith

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Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
Great photos Keith.
It's always hard to see the the underside of our cars, even on a lift, so these photos are very interesting and helpful.
I did notice the radio. Looks like the perfect period correct radio. I don't believe these cars came with radio's ?
Could you take a close up photo of the radio next time your clicking away ?


Andy
Thanks Andy.

The radio is a Becker Europa TG, which were manufactured in the early '60's. Given it's condition plus the tag on the back written in German, I expect it is original to the car. It was probably installed when it arrived in the US. Fortunately, the speaker was installed in the passenger foot well as was common back then, and not in a door panel.

Keith

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Thanks Keith and very nice original radio. A little mothers chrome polish and that will look like new.
I susequently found a lot of good alfabb info. regarding radios .

Also just noticed your missing front side directionals .
 

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Also just noticed your missing front side directionals .
The "missing" direction indicator is a "feature" of the USA version: Due to DOT regulations, Series 1 cars for USA had no direction indicator on the fenders (and no hole for them). Series 2 cars for USA had hole that was covered with blank plates.
Many USA cars were Europeanized by removing bumper overriders, changing front and rear direction indicator lenses from white/red to amber, and adding the direction indicators on the fenders.
 

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Hello Keith,

Do you have the rear bupper ?
The right support is missing. May be it is still on the bupper ?

My first impression about the color of this car is that it's not the original color. But seeing all these red marks (especially on the back of the convertible top compartment, while the insulation looks original) I think I'm wrong.
Did you ask the Alfa Historical Department for the characteristics of the car?

The car has carpet rugs on the floors. Are the original rubber mats underneath?

On this car, the "SCOCCA" number is body painted. Is that always the cas ? Is the scocca number place on the car before painting ?
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Hello Keith,

Do you have the rear bupper ?
The right support is missing. May be it is still on the bupper ?

My first impression about the color of this car is that it's not the original color. But seeing all these red marks (especially on the back of the convertible top compartment, while the insulation looks original) I think I'm wrong.
Did you ask the Alfa Historical Department for the characteristics of the car?

The car has carpet rugs on the floors. Are the original rubber mats underneath?

On this car, the "SCOCCA" number is body painted. Is that always the cas ? Is the scocca number place on the car before painting ?
Yes, I have the rear bumper and right support. I need to reweld the right support and then reattach the bumper.

Yes, I have contacted Museo Storico for the original manufacturing data.

It only has carpet, no rubber mats for the interior.

I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on what to expect regarding Scocca data plates.

Keith
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Keith

Great reference photos but don't forget your plan on this car ,

"My plan is to do no harm and keep all the patina. I want to make it mechanically reliable, replace the foam in the seats, repair some rust in the rockers, polish the original paint and leave it as is."

The car looks like it could be in identical condition to mine, which is fully roadworthy, with a rebuilt engine but needing a full respray and a bit shabby underneath. When I could I do many shows in mine , slow track days including a drive from the UK to SPA Franco-champs in Belgium.

Stop dismantling it , put the engine back in and drive it and enjoy it! All the work you plan to do can be done with the car running, there is no structural rust , just character.

I will drive mine until I retire , 3 years and counting down, then take the 1-2 man years to restore it properly.

Obviously replace all rubber hoses and seals, but the rest looks good as is.

I see you have dismantled the pedals and master cylinders. You are in danger of having a lot of parts in boxes for the next 5 years

Ian
Ian,

I hear ya! I have some project cars that I took apart 18 years ago and still have not put back together. I am determined not to repeat that mistake with this car.

As I am retired, I highly recommend it. As to the depth of repairs and getting the car back on the road, speed is important. I am trying to strike a balance between "good" and "good enough".

Thanks for the reminder of the goal, I shall endeavor to achieve it.

Speed is life,
Keith
 

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Great to hear , there are two routes , as you are retired and the car seems to have limited rust , I would actually go for plan B now and fully restore the car. Unrestored cars sit at 59 -69 k , Concours 125k, with some dealers now trying 200k


Beautiful cars make beautiful money - this is a 2600 spider, I am currently helping a friend finish
X LEAVING P.H. 3.jpg


Which should when finished look the same as one of Bernhard's restorations as below.

touring63 green spider.JPG
 

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Which should when finished look the same as one of Bernhard's restorations as below.
...which happens to be 191450, my former parts car that happened to be too good to be ripped apart, but with serious rust problems only Bernhard with his tremendous skill and experience could fix. From this resto, I learned that the degree of how much we notice the presence of bumper overriders actually depends on body color -- here, they just blend into the overall picture, while in other cases, they sometimes stick out like sore thumbs. I believe the car now lives at OKP, but they don't seem to show it on their website anymore.
 

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Also he has removed the black buffers ( As post 1) and replaced with light chrome? strips, which helps a bit.

My RHD UK car unfortunately has these US spec over-riders
 

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Colour choice appears to be critical with these cars. Red simply does not work for these (sorry) but 191450 is an example of a good color choice ... as is greys

Pete
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Great to hear , there are two routes , as you are retired and the car seems to have limited rust , I would actually go for plan B now and fully restore the car. Unrestored cars sit at 59 -69 k , Concours 125k, with some dealers now trying 200k


Beautiful cars make beautiful money - this is a 2600 spider, I am currently helping a friend finish
View attachment 1665476

Which should when finished look the same as one of Bernhard's restorations as below.

View attachment 1665477
Ian,

Those are very pretty cars.

RE: Full Restoration

If I accomplished a full restoration, the car would be off the road for several years without my being able to enjoy it or experience driving it, and I may not live long enough to see it finished. Also, I need to consider the lost opportunity of completing other Alfa projects behind this one.

More importantly, it appears my car has some unique details that would be erased if I did a full restoration. If I did restore it, it would then be another shiny car like the others, where now it has it's own unique, individual characteristics and stories that make it one of a kind. As often said, it is only original once.

Cheers,
Keith
 

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The above cars are beautiful and I love the variations in colors. Red is not my 1st choice but never heard Red does not work with Alfa's ?

Below is my 64 Red Alfa with 73,000 miles . The car has never driven better
and drive it every chance I get. The engine and solex's have apparently never been touched over all the years and I can't belive the cars runs as well as she does . Hope my luck continues.....
 

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