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Discussion Starter #1
I am starting a new thread for AR*191190 to document information on this specific Alfa.
Below is my original post, and responses, from a different thread.
Keith
PS. The picture of the passenger door card is "as found" condition. It has not been wiped down or cleaned, and the driver's door is in the same condition.



12/12/20

I am fortunate to have recently obtained a 1962 10601 2600 Spider:

Chassis #: AR*191190
Touring #: 10698
Scocca #: 306
Engine: AR00601*01029

31,018 original miles and mostly original paint

The previous owner had it for over 50 years and unfortunately had to stop his restoration of the car ten years ago. He built the engine/transmission cradle. He did overhaul the engine and it's components however I will be checking them before installation. My plan is to do no harm and keep all the patina. I want to make it mechanically reliable, replace the foam in the seats, repair some rust in the rockers, polish the original paint and leave it as is.

I find the many details of the car fascinating, so different than the 750/101/105 Series cars that I am familiar with.

I will be certainly asking for advice in the future.

Very glad to be here,

Keith



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DPeterson3
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Joined Apr 22, 2007
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#48 3 d ago

I recommend upper body weight training.

Don P
Carson City, NV





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iicarJohn
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Discussion Starter • #49 3 d ago

Thank you Keith! Yours is the first 2000/2600 news in a couple of days ... mybe because I am not paying enough attention to drive the study forward? Your info will appear in the next update. And "DPeterson3" ... I am certain that we can all use a bit more training as many of us spend a bit too much time seated at our computers? But then, a bit of mental and emotional exercise should be better than none?


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touring63
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#50 3 d ago

191190 is a great original Car. Gratulation.
Only, I am Wondering that the Engine Compartment is Painted red.


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DPeterson3
Push hard and live

Joined Apr 22, 2007
10,525 Posts
#52 2 d ago

touring63 said:
191190 is a great original Car. Gratulation.
Only, I am Wondering that the Engine Compartment is Painted red.
There is a good chance the current paint is NOT original. Furthermore, a body-color engine bay for a 102/106 pretty much guarantees that a lot of work was done prior to the repaint.

I've had two, red 10204's. For ONE of them, it was the original color. The original lacquer paint would never survive this long without being stored in a nitrogen bubble, in a lightless room.

Don P
Carson City, NV




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tubut
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#53 2 d ago (Edited)

Welcome to AlfaBB, Keith!

Great pictures and story on 191190. The car is obviously (to me) an early USA model that probably would have been delivered with 102 hubcaps.

The engine compartment (inside and/or below the aluminum trim around the edges) being painted in body color is a bit unexpected, if not puzzling -- but so is the fact that the scocca badge is mounted on the inside of the support bracket for the rubber stop for the engine hood (not below the bracket, where it can be found on other cars), almost as if the bracket was welded on after the scocca number had been installed (how else could the screw holes have been drilled in that location?).

Whether or not the paint is factory original or a result of the body having been worked on 40-50 years ago is a question that will have to remain unanswered for now. Maybe this car is an example or witness of Carrozzeria Touring learning and adapting to building these models and optimizing the production line. It would be interesting to see what the underbody of the car looks like and to measure whether or not the horizontal openings next to the center grille are at the same height (the passenger side opening usually is 3/8" to 1/2" lower than driver the side). I would suggest you to do that in a separate thread (just for this car) where we may be able to discuss the car and answer any questions you may have about it and/or getting it back on the road.

BTW, the first and only occurrence of 191190 being listed in the 2000/2600 International Register is in 1995, when it belonged to a Dan A. Riddell (of Tulsa, OK) who submitted it as being in original condition with a 4 out of 5 rating for each of body, interior, chrome and mechanicals (see online version here).

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).



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iicarJohn
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Discussion Starter • #54 2 d ago

Thank you "cast iron 2000". Your info is entered and should appear with the next update.

For those who believe all of these cars should have been finished absolutely consistently, I don't believe we can know that at this point. Some fairly unexpected things have happened in the factories of many manufacturers that were probably far more typically "constrained" than either Alfa Romeo or Carrozzeria Touring in this time period. When in doubt, I would tend to retain 'what is' rather than make the car fit the expectations of others based on experiences with a limited cross-section of cars. A correction can always be made during a restoration if required, when more evidence is in?

When we learn the initial destination for 191140, we may just learn something meaningful that may give us pause for thought? I spent a few hours taking imprecise notes from one Giulietta "Spaider" ledger and there were quite a number of unexpected variations from "normal" alluded to during less than the one year's production the ledger described.




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tubut
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#55 24 h ago (Edited)

Having had a closer look at the picture of the engine compartment of 191190, I get the impression that there is indeed some black paint under the red paint in some areas (as shown in cropped image below). I would expect these areas to be part of the telaio/pianale (delevired by Alfa to Touring) while the areas on the outside (to the left) of the radiator and near the hood latch show yellowish-green-beige primer (which probably was RAL 1000 or maybe even the darker RAL 1020 in color) that would have been supplied/installed by Touring.

1663160



-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Here are some pictures of the paint patina. From the old school, screw on dealer emblem, it was evidently first sold in New York City.

I asked the PO's son if he knew anything about the dents and scratches. He said the only one he knew about is the last picture where his Schwinn Stingray bicycle fell over and the end of the handle scratched the car. He was ten years old and scared to death that his dad would be very upset. Turns out his Dad took it in stride and did not make a big deal about it. The son is now sixty years old so that happened in 1970.
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Well done Dad!

Pete
 

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Another striking feature is.
The holder for the rubber stop for the hood has never existed in the series.
I agree with John absolutely. Especially with cars from Italy there are many variations and changes in the series that are often not or only difficult to understand.
That's why I often have to laugh when Porsche or Mercedes people discuss dimensional differences or the originality of details on Italian cars.
Porsche crazy people soon argue how screw head slot was mounted correctly.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
 

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Or the other way round at least the photo of the engine bay shows a view of how a reasonably original LHD 2600 spider would look . Which is a help to me when reassembling a car which has been totally stripped of all parts with no record
 

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Thankyou , Bernhard , the current car I am working on is a 1964 RHD Spider , I own the same model which I am using for reference, it is in no way original but I can get a most references from it. But there is an engine in the way. If you had any similar photos of a RHD engine bay they would be appreciated.
 

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Keith
Incredible find and great photos. I have same interior gray and yours looks to be in very good condition. I noticed the chrome around the door pocket tab and never saw this before.
Something else to add to my wishlist.
 

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The door protectors are stainless steel - very easy to knock off or lose. as only held on in my case with one screw. A friendly metal fabricator made a copy for me


…………..and maybe not fitted to all cars .
 

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Keith
Incredible find and great photos. I have same interior gray and yours looks to be in very good condition. I noticed the chrome around the door pocket tab and never saw this before.
Something else to add to my wishlist.
6474
If you mean this piece of chrome Mr fiat has them for an obscene price.
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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Pictures

The car received a scrape on the right front fender some time ago, the family does not know when or how. You cannot see it from the outside, however the repair is clearly seen on the inside. The brake vacuum booster will be hiding that later.
You can also see what appears to be a butt weld line in the center of the nose panel, coming out of the radiator drain access hole.
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Bet that weld from the drain hole is factory.

Interesting all the details you are finding!
Pete
 

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Keith, if you're worried about the crease and weld lines shown in the picture below, I wouldn't worry: They may be from the factory.

 
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Keith

Great detail in your under-bonnet photos , down to exact wiring location and positions/type of stickers

But , do not forget that these 2000 and 2600 spiders were , individually hand built , by two different companies.

A few years ago, I was lucky enough to acquire a NOS nose section fro a 2600 spider as photos attached . Which later went on to be fitted on a concours restoration and was described as "bloody Impossible " to fit, requiring a lot of cutting and modification . Mods like cutting a slot in the centre of the panel and re weld to shape correctly are highly likely. Note on this base panel the hole for the radiator drain is not even there.

The panels sides and lower edges have clearly been made oversize for later trim to fit

I now understand from Ruedi's detailed notes here


That on original build would have been made by Touring and assembled on a buck into a front clip ( nose and wings) . To then be welded on to a base chassis supplied by Alfa Romeo

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Discussion Starter #16
Keith, if you're worried about the crease and weld lines shown in the picture below, I wouldn't worry: They may be from the factory.

Thanks Ruedi. To be sure, I am not worried at all about these details and I will be leaving them as is. I like finding seams and learning how the car was assembled. And every mark has a story.
 
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