[ruxton]

Hello all,

Brand new member here!
I am being offered a "project" 101 Spider 1300. It's supposedly a matching number Normale but I don't know enough about it to tell.
I'm a lifetime P-Car guy but have always loved Alfa's and actually had a daily driver '72 Spider for a couple of years when I was a kid. Now I am about to retire (sort of) and this thing comes along right in my area, and after spending time looking at all sorts of images I am falling in love with the cars. Especially in gray with red interior.....
Anyway, I always hate these sort of posts on the Porsche forums but...... I need to know if I'm getting into something I will regret financially. The car is disassembled but seems very complete, with some extra stuff such as two sets of seats, two top frames, two sets of bumpers, a beautiful NOS nose in green with the stickers on it etc. etc. It's a 1300 Normale matching the plate but it's evidently been rebuilt to Veloce specs by our local Alfa expert probably 30 years ago and never run. It has the Webers, the Veloce air cleaner housings, the oil pan etc. etc.
Anyway, the price is $15K and I'm scouring the Classic Alfa site in England and have been able to "spend" almost $20K on everything I can think of for the car. I have some skills in body/paint and can do that myself to a pretty high standard. Welding has been quoted at $15 - $2500 by a reputable shop.
It's very solid and not very rusty.
I am retiring soon and have the time and space to take this on (I'll move a P-car out into the rain) but I don't want to start it if I'll end up underwater financially, of course. Forgive me for asking this question as I hate to see these inquiries on the Porsche forums, but sometimes a car falls into you lap about which you know virtually nothing. I really do need advice from those who have restored one and those who have a lifetime of experience.
Thanks in advance.....

 

[ruxton]

Wrong forum

Oops, typical rookie mistake. I have put this in the wrong forum, I think it should be in the Giulietta forum.
Is it possible to move it over for me please?

Thanks.

 

[Subtle]

I had the 101 Sprint I recently sold fully restored. That was from blasting to metal replacement and interior.

I would never go through another restoration.

 

[Alfajay]

the price is $15K and I'm scouring the Classic Alfa site in England and have been able to "spend" almost $20K on everything I can think of for the car. I have some skills in body/paint and can do that myself to a pretty high standard. Welding has been quoted at $15 - $2500 by a reputable shop..... but I don't want to start it if I'll end up underwater financially

As Alfa restoration projects go, the scope of this one doesn't sound too daunting. You seem to know what you are doing so will probably be able to complete this project fairly efficiently, both time and money -wise.

While I can't predict the economics to the penny (how much will vintage Alfas be selling for when your project is done in a couple of years?), my guess is that you will end up underwater. That's just the reality of restoring sub-$100K cars; if restoration increases a car's value by X percent, X times the car's value isn't enough to outweigh your labor and material expenses.

So as long as you are willing to do it for fun, I'd say "go for it". But as a money making enterprise, not so much.

 

[Craterface]

Go for it

It is always cheaper to buy someone else's restoration.

But, if you do it, at least you will know exactly what you have. You might end up 10 or 20k under water. If you can tolerate that, go for it.

Scott

 

[Gordon Raymond]

NEVER restore one to make money. ALWAYS save one by spending time and money for FUN! These are great cars, wonderful to drive, and fun to work on. Planning on retiring soon? A wonderful way to spend your time! BB members are great people and willing to help. The amount of combined knowlege here is VAST. Restoring one of these cars as a driver or show car will keep you very busy and involved. More than that, it keeps you out of bars and away from wicked women as you will be car-poor, always broke. As Scott said above, "Go For It!"
Just my opinion as is usual. Others may disagree. Subtle (Bob) says he would never go through another restoration, however... he keeps doing it! His sold sprint is beautiful, and the new owner can't be more pleased with his purchase from Bob. Bob saved another one!

 

[kuni123456]

I completely restored my 1961 Sprint Veloce. The car has been in my family since 1961, and was purchased by my father three or four months after construction. I spent so much money over the years that I could have purchased a house in Los Angeles by 1974. I spent an extra $40K to complete the restoration and the car is worth more than $40K. I am restoring one 750 Spider and one 750 Spider Veloce. I think that restoring cars for profit is not a good idea, but one should restore cars that one would like to own and drive.

 

[bfeng]

Hello all,

Brand new member here!
I am being offered a "project" 101 Spider 1300. It's supposedly a matching number Normale but I don't know enough about it to tell.
(snip) I really do need advice from those who have restored one and those who have a lifetime of experience.
Thanks in advance.....

I'd say if you have
(1) Time
(2) workshop
(3) skills (have or the ability and patience to learn)

and if the car
(1) is 95% complete
(2) no major rust

You should be able to restore it and be financially above water. If you farm out the paint, upholstery and an engine/trans rebuild, that's probably less than $20k. A really well restored 101 car ought to be worth at least $60-$70k, no? So there seems to be enough headroom ($20 to buy, $20k parts, $20k outsourced work).

If you go forward I need a pair of seats and a convertible top frame....


John

 

[Alfajay]

If you farm out the paint, upholstery and an engine/trans rebuild, that's probably less than $20k.

John, I just don't think those numbers are realistic for 2015.

Professional paint & body alone can come to $20K if the car has the usual rust & accident damage. Maybe you could do it for less if you live in the backwoods, where shops dump used solvent out back and pay their people under the table. But in states like Massachusetts and California, where regulations are enforced, stuff costs money.

Parts alone for rebuilding an Alfa engine, clutch, and transmission come to a thousand plus (go through the IAP or Centerline catalogs and tally it all up). Add in machine work and the labor cost of disassembly/reassembly, and you add another several thousand here.

Admittedly, upholstery is fairly inexpensive, unless you go crazy using 100% factory original materials. Still, figure $1,500 plus for labor + locally-sourced fabrics.

Ho Boy, this one is gonna start a controversy! When you reply, remember that John mentioned professionally-done paint, upholstery and an engine/trans rebuild; the question isn't what an amateur can do it for, nor what professional restorations cost back in 1985.

 

[kuni123456]

I am restoring two Giulietta Spiders right now. The paint and body work will cost about $12K or so. The chrome plating is $4-5K. The interior is around $3.5K. The parts and machine work is $6K. The labor cost depends upon the shop. The cars are not too rusty or have major bodywork. The cost for the above is around $26K plus labor and the cost of the car. I know two owners that spent more than $20K for paint and body work due to rust damage and extensive body damage. I am not including the cost of rebuilding the engine and transmission of either car. I think that restoring a car can be very expensive and can exceed the value of the car.

 

[divotandtralee]

Lot's of good advice from every side of the spectrum.. from "saving" cars because they deserve it to "I would never do it again".

I like your approach. This doesn't sound like your first rodeo. Your attention to accounting for costs is more than most folks do when they fall head long into a project. Spending money on a hobby to me is admirable but doesn't fit my modus operandi except for operating costs. I've restored three cars and dumped two that needed it because I would have been so far under water if I had done them. I leave the "rescues" to someone else with more expendable money than me. I prefer rescuing dogs (see Avatar). There's more than one way to enjoy owning old cars. I haven't been underwater yet on the three .

Your specimen sounds like something I would definitely buy but not rush into. It will take some time to become familiar with the construction and nuances of the car. Take your time. Try to drive one. You will either become further motivated or be disappointed at which time you find another retirement project and it can find a new home with no lost investment at this price level and the spares included. There might even be room to flip it or some duplicates like seats and come out slightly ahead but don't make it anymore a basket than what it is in the process. Hope this helps and good luck. Some photos would be appreciated.

Oh, if this is such a nugget, how is it a Porsche guy is the first in line? Is there something there a knowledgeable Alfa buyer would not be interested in? Not many old Porsches get snapped up under the noses of the Porsche collectors by Alfa guys.

PS the engine needs to be disassembled after that many years of sitting.

 

[OFRACER]

Its probably my fault that "ruxton" is looking for an Alfa, I parked my Alfa race car next to his Porsche race car at a vintage race a couple of years ago and we had a great time together. I asked him what kind of oil he used in his Porsche and he said he used Castrol, I told him we used 0170 in Alfas and showed him an extra 0170 cap I had in my parts box, it took a while but when I turned it around and it said 0LlO I knew I had him! If you saw the workmanship on his Porsche you would understand that this Alfa will be stunning. I gave him the extra oil cap and he was going to put it on the Porsche!

OFRACER

 

[Gordon Raymond]

OFRACER,
Thanks for bringing another Alfa Spider rescuer to the BB. Lots of Porsche owners become Alfa converts after 1) driving one, 2) driving one on the track 3) being beaten by one in track vintage events, and then trying one on for driveability.
In my racing days with my Ausca Spider (GTA drivetrain) I would push the vintage Porsche's on line into corners, then move further outside and begin a pass. Universally, they sped up enough to cause the typical rear-engine Porche-spin into the grass, by which time I would have moved back inside and completed my pass.
I had a bunch of water type slide off Porsche emblem decals in my toolbox and I would stick another one on my drivers door. I liked this Alfa trick. Many Porsche drivers would eventually become converts, or at least, MUCH more careful of that "red Alfa Spider".

 

[ruxton]

'60 Spider

OFRacer is partially right about being responsible for my interest in this Alfa. We were indeed pitted together and had a fun weekend of racing against each other. If I may comment briefly on the Porsche vs Alfa handling - yes, Alfas go around the corners beautifully but believe it or not, so does my 356. I am sometimes door to door with a red Italian thing and no one is getting any advantage. Braking is the same. The secret is that we P Car guys have figured out how to put the right amount of camber into the front and a "Z" sway bar on the rear to keep the wheels planted. I went from a Formula Ford right into this 356 Coupe and was stunned at how well the little tub handled. It's planted, predictable and controllable. Alfa guys - swap cars for a session sometime.....
Anyway, thank you all for such a generous response. My interest in this car is not to make money on a future resale, but simply to restore something beautiful. That is what drives me in most of my car decisions. That said, I don't want to be putting all this effort into something that is getting out of hand financially - that would be frustrating and would lessen my enjoyment of the project. I'm sure that you understand.
This car was under the radar of most Alfa people because of it's location and that fact that it was an estate sale that wasn't really public at all. My friend acquired the car and I will be buying it from him for the price I mentioned above. I do think that I will be able to sell some things that I don't need to get the price of entry to a more comfortable point.
I'll attach a photo or two and keep dreaming of the moment when that gray paint starts flowing out of the gun onto the perfectly prepped, gorgeous body. It's why I do this stuff.
Thanks again for all the input......

 

[ruxton]

piks

OK, here are a couple of piks.....

 

[Alfajay]

I am being offered a "project" 101 Spider 1300. It's supposedly a matching number Normale

Dunno about the rest of the engine, but that upper airbox has a veloce look to it. Are there dual sidedraft Webers? Is the exhaust manifold two-piece cast iron, or tubular headers?

Looks like it is also one of those rare, dual-transmission models. :grin2:

 

[ruxton]

motor

Yes, it is the Veloce Weber setup with the oil pan and the headers and according to the seller the internals built to Veloce specs. Also comes with all the Normale externals. Of course the motor will have to come apart.
The air cleaner setup is only missing a bracket that attaches things to the inner fender according to the seller but he says that he can template an original that he has access to and make one up. Or.... are they obtainable as used parts or repros?

 

[divotandtralee]

Looks vaguely familiar... here's a shot of motivation for you.

 

[greenehoosier]

Looks like a nice start to a gorgeous car!

 

[JPriami]

Heres the 1960 one we have. What color are you going with?