Alfa Romeo Forums banner
1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Premium Member
66 Duetto, 69 Fiat 850 Abarth, 72 Montreal, 59,61, 62 spiders
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I will be installing my 66 Duetto 1600 motor w/dual webers and 5 speed into a 59 spider in the process of being restored.... Anyone that has done a conversion like this.. Please post any issues and solutions, so I can avoid them.
I have a set of Classic Alfa part # 750-066 listed as ENGINE MOUNTS 750 VELOCE CONVERSION, not sure if that is correct for this 1966 1600
prop shaft, exhaust, mounts , clearance issues etc. I thank all in advance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,518 Posts
The mounts will cant the engine only. You will need to change the Duetto sump and exhaust manifolds and in doing so check the clearance between the generator and the steering column. There will inevitably be some shuffling needed to get a proper fit and do be aware of sump/road clearance.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,815 Posts
Headers (Veloce) will also present some issues with steering column clearance and position under the floor pan possibly too high or too low. Alternator will be an issue as generators were used on these cars. Depending on your sump / block / front cover, dipstick tube and stick will be an issue. ALL the fitment problems can be resolved with patience and creative thinking. Some of us have done a lot of engine swaps in 750 and 101 chassis.
 

·
Premium Member
66 Duetto, 69 Fiat 850 Abarth, 72 Montreal, 59,61, 62 spiders
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you for your response, ready to take this on...any suggestion on what sump and exhaust manifold or headers that will work?
 

·
Premium Member
66 Duetto, 69 Fiat 850 Abarth, 72 Montreal, 59,61, 62 spiders
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks Gordan, appreciate your response...if you can please explain what issues I may see as this 1600 has an alternator, Im going to drop it in and see if I can solve these fitment issues before I clean up and paint the engine compartment.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,815 Posts
The way I used to do these conversions is to start with a dummy (empty) head / block and sump of the same as my transplant, You don't even need to bolt things together other than sump, front cover with one or two finger tight nuts on studs. Head just slid on. The HARD part is to get mounts correct for engine height and tilt. With a dummy assembly, it's light enough to disassemble / assemble in place and shift around with shims for clearance.
The other way to do this is with the actual transplant which requires a hoist, and multiple install / remove cycles to get things almost right. This will make you EXPERT at installing engines & transmissions in 750 & 101 chassis.
The BEST sump to use is the repo Veloce sump available from Classic Alfa or Ok Parts and engineering. This is costly, and when you buy from these suppliers, specify you want ALL the studs needed for the complete assembly. Some sellers of this "kit" leave out the studs and more, and these are a PITA to make or source. The other option for easy fit is the one piece aluminum cast sump for Normale engines. This is (was?) available new as a repo from the same sources. It fits the chassis but lacks the underneath oil cooling passages of the Veloce sump. The Normale cast sump is also available used from various used Alfa parts sources as lesser cost than the repo. Either the Veloce or Normale sump require a different oil pump from the one in your 1600 engine, though that one can often be used for core parts. Your 59 transmission should be a 4 speed split case. If you want a 5 speed, all the split case 5 speed, will work, but you will need to use your original 59 bell housing. You do not want to try converting a mechanical clutch car to hydraulic without considerable experience with these cars and engine swaps. If your electrics are Lucas, you may want to swap to later Bosch. I build a lot of oil pumps for these sump and engine conversions.
Both header fitment and Weber cold air box clearance on the right inner fender well are related to engine height and tilt. The non functional hood scoop on the 1600-101 cars was for engine HEIGHT clearance. Your flat 750 hood demands a lower engine positioning and is another issue. The 1600 block and head is taller than the 1300-101 assembly or the 750 version.
It is probably best to consult with one familiar with these engine swaps to avoid frustration. You do NOT need to alter chassis or bodywork for this conversion, though it is much like fitting 3 pounds of Italian sausage int a 2 pound bag.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,518 Posts
I described my work fitting a 2000 engine into a '59 Sprint in the Giuliettaletta which, whilst being a taller unit (and there being additional height under the bonnet of a Sprint) was straightforward if lengthy. As Gordon says clearance is the major factor RHS carburettors/flitch panel. LHS manifold/steering column, LHS alternator/steering column and finally gearbox to tunnel. As a matter of interest I used an Alfetta sump and pump.
I have always removed the studs from the engine mounting points on the block and inserted Helicoils which makes life very much easier when shuffling the engine around. I use cap head bolts to finally fix the engine to the mounts, usually with spacers to fine adjust the setting.
 

·
Premium Member
66 Duetto, 69 Fiat 850 Abarth, 72 Montreal, 59,61, 62 spiders
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The way I used to do these conversions is to start with a dummy (empty) head / block and sump of the same as my transplant, You don't even need to bolt things together other than sump, front cover with one or two finger tight nuts on studs. Head just slid on. The HARD part is to get mounts correct for engine height and tilt. With a dummy assembly, it's light enough to disassemble / assemble in place and shift around with shims for clearance.
The other way to do this is with the actual transplant which requires a hoist, and multiple install / remove cycles to get things almost right. This will make you EXPERT at installing engines & transmissions in 750 & 101 chassis.
The BEST sump to use is the repo Veloce sump available from Classic Alfa or Ok Parts and engineering. This is costly, and when you buy from these suppliers, specify you want ALL the studs needed for the complete assembly. Some sellers of this "kit" leave out the studs and more, and these are a PITA to make or source. The other option for easy fit is the one piece aluminum cast sump for Normale engines. This is (was?) available new as a repo from the same sources. It fits the chassis but lacks the underneath oil cooling passages of the Veloce sump. The Normale cast sump is also available used from various used Alfa parts sources as lesser cost than the repo. Either the Veloce or Normale sump require a different oil pump from the one in your 1600 engine, though that one can often be used for core parts. Your 59 transmission should be a 4 speed split case. If you want a 5 speed, all the split case 5 speed, will work, but you will need to use your original 59 bell housing. You do not want to try converting a mechanical clutch car to hydraulic without considerable experience with these cars and engine swaps. If your electrics are Lucas, you may want to swap to later Bosch. I build a lot of oil pumps for these sump and engine conversions.
Both header fitment and Weber cold air box clearance on the right inner fender well are related to engine height and tilt. The non functional hood scoop on the 1600-101 cars was for engine HEIGHT clearance. Your flat 750 hood demands a lower engine positioning and is another issue. The 1600 block and head is taller than the 1300-101 assembly or the 750 version.
It is probably best to consult with one familiar with these engine swaps to avoid frustration. You do NOT need to alter chassis or bodywork for this conversion, though it is much like fitting 3 pounds of Italian sausage int a 2 pound bag.
Gordan,
Thank you for your response...Im going to do option #1.. ..this would have become a difficult task without your direction, , Im going to use my Duetto 5 speed and follow your direction as well. I will post the progress
 

·
Premium Member
66 Duetto, 69 Fiat 850 Abarth, 72 Montreal, 59,61, 62 spiders
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I described my work fitting a 2000 engine into a '59 Sprint in the Giuliettaletta which, whilst being a taller unit (and there being additional height under the bonnet of a Sprint) was straightforward if lengthy. As Gordon says clearance is the major factor RHS carburettors/flitch panel. LHS manifold/steering column, LHS alternator/steering column and finally gearbox to tunnel. As a matter of interest I used an Alfetta sump and pump.
I have always removed the studs from the engine mounting points on the block and inserted Helicoils which makes life very much easier when shuffling the engine around. I use cap head bolts to finally fix the engine to the mounts, usually with spacers to fine adjust the setting.
thanks for your response, with your and Gordans help this may be easy..haha
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,815 Posts
When you run into issues, we both have done these force-fit jobs in the past. Don't hesitate to ask for help.
 

·
Administrator
750 Sprints, Spider, 101 Sprint, Spider & Ti, 105 Sprint GT, 105 Juniors, others
Joined
·
4,759 Posts
I've done it on two 750/101 cars and am about to do it on a third one.

Dad's '57 Spider came with a 1300cc 105 engine and I had to replace it when it burned a valve and the head refused to come off. I swapped in another 105 1300cc engine I had from the '60 Sprint. That's being restored as a big engined Grand Tourer with a 1750 motor (correct 1315 Series 1300 engine is on the shelf).

I also swapped in a 105 Series 1600cc into my '60 Spider as this is my long distance Tour car and the 1600 makes overtaking a pleasure. I have the correct and period correct engines for all three cars above. No other modifications were made, just simple swaps.

To fit a 1600cc 105 engine into a 1300 Spider Normale:
  • Do as Gordon suggests and set up the conversion using an empty motor & transmission - allows you to place the oily bits in the right position without the hernia, it's how I did mine.
  • Assuming you have the early 1600 with the side mounted filter, you will need a 750/101 oil filter head & cannister - the 105 ones just don't work
  • You will need to cut & file a shallow C shaped curve in the lower engine flange to accommodate the above 750/101 filter - use the 750 /101 oil pan as your guide, don't worry about the remaining thin section, the pan & gasket seal well with a thin trace wipe of sealant (no lumpy beads !!)
  • If you have the later block with the screw on oil filter you will need a remote mounted filter set up as the S arm of the steering box occupies this space.
  • You need a 750 / 101 oil pump and tin oil pan or alloy rectangular Giulia 101 pan
  • OR an Alfetta pan & oil pump - trim the web to match the block
  • OR as Gordon suggested, splash out for the repro Veloce pan & talk to him about a pump to match.
  • Then remove the 3 studs from the engine mount triangle areas on the block - Stuart taught us this trick, makes your life a lot easier. Position the block where you need it & fiddle the whole thing until it sits where you want it, slide the mounts into final position & fasten to the block with cap screws / Allen bolts, flat & spring washers.
  • The rest is just the usual fiddle to get 3lbs of Italian sausage under a 2lb hood.
Intake manifold, carb & air filter if going the Normale route, side drafts, plenum & air can if going the Veloce route, exhaust manifold or Veloce headers. Sprints are easy, Spiders have seriously limited headroom under the hood

Prepare to tweak & adjust everything multiple times, fiddle & fettle as they say on Yonder Isle

Ciao
Greig
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,518 Posts
Just to take up a point Greig made....you may well find that the S4 Spider oil filter will in fact fit under the pitman arm of the steering box. The filter is barely 100mm in diameter and Classic Alfa stock them.
 

·
Premium Member
66 Duetto, 69 Fiat 850 Abarth, 72 Montreal, 59,61, 62 spiders
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I've done it on two 750/101 cars and am about to do it on a third one.

Dad's '57 Spider came with a 1300cc 105 engine and I had to replace it when it burned a valve and the head refused to come off. I swapped in another 105 1300cc engine I had from the '60 Sprint. That's being restored as a big engined Grand Tourer with a 1750 motor (correct 1315 Series 1300 engine is on the shelf).

I also swapped in a 105 Series 1600cc into my '60 Spider as this is my long distance Tour car and the 1600 makes overtaking a pleasure. I have the correct and period correct engines for all three cars above. No other modifications were made, just simple swaps.

To fit a 1600cc 105 engine into a 1300 Spider Normale:
  • Do as Gordon suggests and set up the conversion using an empty motor & transmission - allows you to place the oily bits in the right position without the hernia, it's how I did mine.
  • Assuming you have the early 1600 with the side mounted filter, you will need a 750/101 oil filter head & cannister - the 105 ones just don't work
  • You will need to cut & file a shallow C shaped curve in the lower engine flange to accommodate the above 750/101 filter - use the 750 /101 oil pan as your guide, don't worry about the remaining thin section, the pan & gasket seal well with a thin trace wipe of sealant (no lumpy beads !!)
  • If you have the later block with the screw on oil filter you will need a remote mounted filter set up as the S arm of the steering box occupies this space.
  • You need a 750 / 101 oil pump and tin oil pan or alloy rectangular Giulia 101 pan
  • OR an Alfetta pan & oil pump - trim the web to match the block
  • OR as Gordon suggested, splash out for the repro Veloce pan & talk to him about a pump to match.
  • Then remove the 3 studs from the engine mount triangle areas on the block - Stuart taught us this trick, makes your life a lot easier. Position the block where you need it & fiddle the whole thing until it sits where you want it, slide the mounts into final position & fasten to the block with cap screws / Allen bolts, flat & spring washers.
  • The rest is just the usual fiddle to get 3lbs of Italian sausage under a 2lb hood.
Intake manifold, carb & air filter if going the Normale route, side drafts, plenum & air can if going the Veloce route, exhaust manifold or Veloce headers. Sprints are easy, Spiders have seriously limited headroom under the hood

Prepare to tweak & adjust everything multiple times, fiddle & fettle as they say on Yonder Isle

Ciao
Greig

Greig,

Thanks the response, these tricks should make this painless, my 59 is a 750, the 1600 is from my wrecked and burned while on the flatbed hauler 1966 Duetto... I bought from my friends dad back in 80s, He had bought the car new and the original engine blew up in the low 1000s miles.... so Alfa sent and installed a new 1600 engine that has no numbers...dont know more..Ive been moving around the US with this engine for over 30 years
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top