[alfa75turbo2005]

Any period photos.?
what you think about this great car

 

[alfa75turbo2005]

http://www.classicdriver.com/fr/find/4100_results.asp?sorderby=dtSubmitDate&fc=13&spriceoperator=less&action=simple_search&lmanufacturer=*&lcurrency=7&lcurrency_currencychangeform=7&next=4100_results.asp&bsubmit=true&lmostrecent=200&lcompetitionmanufacturer=*&lresultsperpage=20&lauctionmanufacturer=*&lseller=1&smilageoperator=less&ldrive=1&size=20&lprice=0&lvat=1&page=2&lmilagetype=1&lCarID=1754578

 

[SpiderWebb]

Wow! The first Ferrari ever built?!

Wonderful bit of history.

"In fact, it will be may be the first real Ferrari built!"

It all sounds logical, but has this been verified? It might be interesting to find out what Ferrari Historians say. I am happy to see the machine being used instead of sitting in a musty museum. However, I fear for its continued existence. There is only 'ONE' first of anything.

I suppose we needn’t worry if someone prangs it, they will have a couple million dollars and hundreds of photos to put it back the way it was.

 

[tubut]

No perioed pictures or race entries that document the car's provenance. Smells funny. Look at this:

There are no details of where 813392 went wich means that the chassis was used for a special project.

The fact that there are no details of where 813392 went does NOT mean that the chassis was used for a special project. It just means there is a lack of documentation that a fake builder conveniently could take advantage of.

Luigi Fusi, the Alfa Romeo historian who had known and worked with Enzo Ferrari since 1921, sent the owner over one hundred drawings appertaining to the car, including many drawings of the original style bodywork which had been fitted to the car.

This means SOME records exist of the car, just not sales records. It also means the car in its current form is not original.

The chassis has been professionally shortened to 104 inches.

Hmmm. I wonder what the evidence is that this has been done "professionally" or why having this this done prefessionally would be important.

Anyhow, it's still a nice car but, in my opinion, the lack of documentation puts big question marks on its origin and provenance.

 

[dretceterini]

The chassis is from a 6c2300 corto, which has a 118" wheelbase. I believe this car is nothing more than parts from a 6c2300 and an 8c2300 cobbled together, and Ferrari had nothing to do with it.

 

[HenryKrinkle]

um.. you guys know who alfa75turbo2005 is right? haha

He's making new threads now..

Just do a find posts by... cough.

 

[gtv2000]

Wow, the description is a spin masterpiece. Reminds me Alastair Campbell about Iraqui's WMDs. Less danger here, the main aim is only to make believe the car to be "the first Ferrari".

Just a couple of nonsenses:

The front suspension is identical to that of the Alfa Romeo Bi-Motore which was also built up in the Scuderia Ferrari workshop in Modena.

Makes no sense at all. The original Bimotores - arguably the first Ferraris, as being the first cars to wear the Ferrari badge on the cowl - raced with a Dubonnet front axle, like the late 1935 Tipo Bs. Only when one Bimotore was sold to Dobson was that car retrofitted with the the standard, Porsche-scheme IFS, the one fitted to 6C2300B, Tipo C, 8C2900. Of course the "original Bimotore" could not have had that suspension, since it was developed for the Tipo C during the 1935-36 winter. That's documented. So the Ferrari pointer intended here is complete nonsense.

But the best part is here:

All the evidences show that, this is a "Special" made up by Enzo Ferrari, just after he left Alfa Romeo in 1938

Laughable: Enzo Ferrari certainly didn't leave Alfa Romeo in 1938!!! From January 1st, 1938, instead, he was appointed head of Alfa Corse, the new racing department created to replace the Scuderia Ferrari, bought out by Alfa in 1937. So, from Jan. 1938 Ferrari was indeed on Alfa Romeo's payroll (while he was not before that), and he left in October 1939, when any racing activity was suspended due to the war outbreak.

We know too well who's trying to sell us this story. I don't know who casted it, but he would have been advised to do some homework first.

Otherwise, the car most probably is what dretceterini efficiently summed up. It looks like somebody may have been lucky enough to find an 8C2600 engine, looked around for a suitable chassis, found a 6C2300B one which was subsequently butchered (shortened and rear suspension altered), fitted a body in the 12C37 style, and hopefully had a lot of fun at driving the result here and there.

Any alternative history needs to be supported with period documents which, as I understand, don't come with the car.

I seem to remember that a book called "Alfa Romeo-Ferrari"
by Murray Rainey tells the story of that car, plus a similar 6C - engined one. I have not the book on my shelf right because I always looked at that car as an hybride. It could be worth looking closer at what the author presents as evidence of earlier history of the car.

 

[dretceterini]

This car has an interesting history, but what is actually known is all from the 1960s and after. Even the Rainey book mentioned gives us no evidence of the car actually existing as it exists today in the late 1930s. No one seems to know or be willing to tell how this car actually came about. In my opinion, it is a "bitsa", built from Alfa parts, probably in the late 1940s or early 1950s.

 

[alfa75turbo2005]

Did somebody here see the actual car, or it s just internet opinions ?

 

[dretceterini]

Did somebody here see the actual car, or it s just internet opinions ?

Seeing the car doesn't mean anything. No one doubts the car is a 6c2300 chassis with modified rear suspension and an 8c2300 motor, enlarged to 2600. What is needed is actual documentation that the car is connected to Ferrari and put together from these parts pre-war. All that exists is stories and speculation, and no proof.

 

[tubut]

Seeing the car doesn't mean anything. No one doubts the car is a 6c2300 chassis with modified rear suspension and an 8c2300 motor, enlarged to 2600. What is needed is actual documentation that the car is connected to Ferrari and put together from these parts pre-war. All that exists is stories and speculation, and no proof.

I agree. The contradictions in the link in post #2 speak volumes. Attempts to link this car to Ferrari are very far fetched.

 

[tubut]

I also posted this on Ferrarichat:

Here's something interesting from p.215/216 of the 1982 of Hull & Slater's book "Alfa Romeo - A History" (one of the Alfa Romeo bibles next to Fusi, d'Amico & Tabucchi and Simon Moore's books):

Some time during the nineteen-sixties a 6C 2300 chasis, in fairly parlous condition, but fitted with an 8C 2300 supercharged engine, was imported into the U.K., having originated from North Africa, where it had been used for racing. Eventually it came into the hands of Myrray Rayney, a brilliant Australian engineer, living in Surrey. He rebuilt and modified the car considerably in the 'seventies, fitting his own coil spring rear suspension, and handsome bodywork reminiscent of that fitted to 8C 2900 Mille Miglia cars. He also built a sister car, fitted with a 6C 2300 engine, but unique in that it has twin blowers, like a Type B Monoposto. This car in particular is likely to puzzle any Alfa Romeo enthusiast examining it who does not know Murray Rayney! Both cars have been successful in hill climbs and driving tests driven by Murray and his daughter, Joy, who has made a habit of braking ladies' hill climb records outright driving a modern racing car designed and built by Murray called the Murrain.

So, I guess this answers many questions about if and when and by whom the car has been modified.

 

[1.6 HF]

Oops. So much for "All the evidences show that, this is a "Special" made up by Enzo Ferrari".

For all that breathless hype, it turns out to be Murraynzo Ferrainey...

 

[iicarJohn]

Murray Rainey's 6C2300 with 8C engine

813392 was supposedly purchased by Peter Giddings out of Eritrea (North Africa) while he still lived in the UK. Anyone who wants to know more might ask him about the car and how it seemed to him. Murray had his own ideas and Peter often has had others.

The registration plate "HPH127N" was put on the car at about the time of importation apparently and "JFG720" may have also been used in later times. I've not paid much attention, frankly. I've always wanted to know more about these "Rainey" cars but there have been enough other mysteries that my data collection on this/these cars has been half-hearted at best.

It seems most likely that this was a special assembled by Italians(?) in North Africa and that it became more "special" once it went to the UK. A number of interesting cars have turned up in North Africa. Enough to make it an interesting "possibility" when used as "provenance". The scarce records (existing or found?) make it an appealing place to "source" creative finds, but this car was found substantially before it became fashionable to use "Eritrea" or other similar localities as smoke to disguise a car's true origins. In this case, most of the smoke comes most likely from some very wishful thinking and was not created in just the last year or three.

 

[Bitsarrini]

Old topic I know but I searched Alfabb & found this thread after I posted my introduction. under:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/guests-new-members-introductions-please-read/340490-bitsarrini.html
The Murray Rainey car was one of the inspirations for my Bitsarrinni so I know it well. I first saw it in 1989 & it raced / sprinted in the VSCC from the mid seventies until well into the 90's when it was sold after his death.

His daughter is still involved with old cars, most recently : Joy Across America in April 2013 | West to East in a 1904 Oldsmobile


The original registration number HPC127N indicates it was first registered (on the road in the UK) between Aug 74 & July 75. I have Rainey's book and whatever the rights and wrongs of the claimed Ferrari connection it is truly a fabulous car.