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1900C SS Tipo IV restoration (once more with feeling)
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Yes ,
with an IKEA chrome tube you can remove the axle
rgds Franco
with an IKEA chrome tube you can remove the axle
rgds Franco
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I am looking for the right kind of material to use for installing the gas tank. It appears that the original stuff was a thick felt like material, which seems a bad idea in that moisture and/or water could soak in and rust the straps and/or the tank itself. In fact my tank shows some signs of minor corrosion on the outside “grooves” where the straps fit.
Has anyone come up with suitable or appropriate substitute? I can think of options (cork, rubber, etc.) but I’d like something that resembles the original.
-tj in the Cruz Mtn
Has anyone come up with suitable or appropriate substitute? I can think of options (cork, rubber, etc.) but I’d like something that resembles the original.
-tj in the Cruz Mtn
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Hello TJ,
I bought the felt from a supplier, but you're right for the rust. But felt was the original material.
Today, you can use the same material that I used for the rear axle straps. In fact it's an old style transmission belt !!
I'm sure you can find the desired width and thickness.
Maybe I'll do the same.
Chris
My straps :
![1673312]()
I bought the felt from a supplier, but you're right for the rust. But felt was the original material.
Today, you can use the same material that I used for the rear axle straps. In fact it's an old style transmission belt !!
I'm sure you can find the desired width and thickness.
Maybe I'll do the same.
Chris
My straps :
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Hi,
You can used felt what is impregnated to prevent water and moisture soaking .
rgds Franco
You can used felt what is impregnated to prevent water and moisture soaking .
rgds Franco
Difficult decisions TJ, the most difficult thing is to choose between originality and something that is considered an improvement, and with modern technology available it is all so easy to 'improve'.
Unfortunately that is completely up to you. I know it is very tempting to improve on the original design, but how far should you go? Same as your previous question a couple of posts ago on the clutch...
I am personally sticking to originality as much as possible, I believe that is the true value of these cars.
So, I have the original clutch in my car.
And yes, I have used felt for the tank straps, I did fully soak it in undercoat/rustproof oil to hopefully prevent it from holding any water. Main thing is to have the very best paint layer on your tank as possible. Imagine using another material instead of felt, and finding out later that this material has damaged your layer of paint.... hard to stop corrosion.
But, yes I agree, cork or rubber could we a good material. But remember, both these materials were available when our cars were designed, why did they not choose to use it? Maybe it is not an improvement? Who knows,
Mike
Unfortunately that is completely up to you. I know it is very tempting to improve on the original design, but how far should you go? Same as your previous question a couple of posts ago on the clutch...
I am personally sticking to originality as much as possible, I believe that is the true value of these cars.
So, I have the original clutch in my car.
And yes, I have used felt for the tank straps, I did fully soak it in undercoat/rustproof oil to hopefully prevent it from holding any water. Main thing is to have the very best paint layer on your tank as possible. Imagine using another material instead of felt, and finding out later that this material has damaged your layer of paint.... hard to stop corrosion.
But, yes I agree, cork or rubber could we a good material. But remember, both these materials were available when our cars were designed, why did they not choose to use it? Maybe it is not an improvement? Who knows,
Mike
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Mike,
I agree completely. I’m very much in agreement that preserving originality is important, and not just for long term value, which is certainly a consideration because at least in my part of the world these cars have really lost a lot of their utility. Yes, they can still get you to the grocery store, but the trip might not be terribly pleasant and the risks of complete loss are not insignificant. My view is that using them on special occasions, and at times when the people driving 85MPH weaving in and out of lanes whilst looking at their phones, is the most enjoyable way to appreciate them. It’s why I chose to restore my Giulia to stock specs rather than go the Alfaholic GTA-R route, although there is certainly nothing wrong with that.
And so since 10321 will always be stored in a rather secure garage, and likely never see rain, I will likely use felt. It did occur to me that I could do as you did, and use a spray wax or oil to at least prevent water from soaking in, and I may go that route.
-tj
I agree completely. I’m very much in agreement that preserving originality is important, and not just for long term value, which is certainly a consideration because at least in my part of the world these cars have really lost a lot of their utility. Yes, they can still get you to the grocery store, but the trip might not be terribly pleasant and the risks of complete loss are not insignificant. My view is that using them on special occasions, and at times when the people driving 85MPH weaving in and out of lanes whilst looking at their phones, is the most enjoyable way to appreciate them. It’s why I chose to restore my Giulia to stock specs rather than go the Alfaholic GTA-R route, although there is certainly nothing wrong with that.
And so since 10321 will always be stored in a rather secure garage, and likely never see rain, I will likely use felt. It did occur to me that I could do as you did, and use a spray wax or oil to at least prevent water from soaking in, and I may go that route.
-tj
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1,138 Posts
I'm making slow progress eliminating small individual tasks; having keys made for the ignition switch, door, and trunk locks. Thankfully there is a local locksmith with the right blanks, and the ability to make keys for them. On the topic of keys, a curious situation comes up. If you recall, I asked a while back if any other Tipo IV owners had CEAM ignition switches in their cars. There appear to have been two switches installed in 1900s, Marelli or Bosch. The CEAM switch I have is found in Lancias and Ferraris of the period, but I haven't heard from any other Alfa or 1900 owners with this kind of switch. It may or may not be "Touring original" but it's been with the car for at least 57 years and so I'm going to use it. What is curious about the CEAM switch is that it does not behave like most modern ignitions in that there's not a spring loaded "starter engagement" when you turn it all the way clockwise. There is, however, the ability to push the key and ignition in, once it is turned to the 6 o'clock position. It occurred to me that perhaps this is the way the starter is engaged. I noodled around with a multimeter to see if I could figure out what circuits are connected when this is done, but without luck. Curiously, also in the parts that came with the car was a separate push button, which theoretically would be to engage the starter, but I've never seen a Tipo IV with such a button. I cannot tell who the manufacturer is, or even when it was made, but it appears to be of 50s or 60s vintage.
On another topic, I have taken my steering column to Straightline Steering in San Jose. A friend and fellow Tipo IV owner used them with great success, and when I dropped off the box they were professional and enthusiastic, so I feel good about their ability to do the job. Upon follow up I learned that the bearing race and cup are worn and need to be replaced, but they're having a hard time finding replacements. They're certainly not Alfa savvy but they have access to vast resources for most bearings, and they've not given up, but I'm trying to see if I can find any information to help our mutual quest.
I'm not knowledgeable about the steering boxes in 1900s but it appears that Gemmer is at least one manufacturer. I assumed Gemmer was German but it actually appears that they were made in Detroit. I don't know whether my box is a Gemmer or not, (see photo below) but I don't see the word "Gemmer" on it, rather what appears to be "Marcci." The tech at Straightline said that the words "Made In _____and" were visible on one of the parts, which I assume is England.
Does anyone recognize my steering box, who manufactured it, and most importantly, where I might find replacement bearings and cup for it?
IMG_4869 by TJ Noto, on Flickr
IMG_4870 by TJ Noto, on Flickr
-tj in the Cruz Mtns
On another topic, I have taken my steering column to Straightline Steering in San Jose. A friend and fellow Tipo IV owner used them with great success, and when I dropped off the box they were professional and enthusiastic, so I feel good about their ability to do the job. Upon follow up I learned that the bearing race and cup are worn and need to be replaced, but they're having a hard time finding replacements. They're certainly not Alfa savvy but they have access to vast resources for most bearings, and they've not given up, but I'm trying to see if I can find any information to help our mutual quest.
I'm not knowledgeable about the steering boxes in 1900s but it appears that Gemmer is at least one manufacturer. I assumed Gemmer was German but it actually appears that they were made in Detroit. I don't know whether my box is a Gemmer or not, (see photo below) but I don't see the word "Gemmer" on it, rather what appears to be "Marcci." The tech at Straightline said that the words "Made In _____and" were visible on one of the parts, which I assume is England.
Does anyone recognize my steering box, who manufactured it, and most importantly, where I might find replacement bearings and cup for it?
IMG_4869 by TJ Noto, on FlickrIMG_4870 by TJ Noto, on Flickr-tj in the Cruz Mtns
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I'm not sure what the exact path to my answer was, but I now know that the steering box in 10321 was made by Marles. I couldn't make out the name in the casting until I saw the name "Marles."
www.marlessteeringbox.com
-tj
Home - MARLES Steering Box
www.marlessteeringbox.com
-tj
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Not an option Unfortunately. We are not talking about Gemmer or Adament steering box, and even for those I doubt if Afra has anything for them. When it comes to Marles, Afra does not have a clue what is inside of those. Trust me, speak to the man who has built them, and the pricing will at least be fair.
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Mike,
Thanks for the endorsement. I’d already emailed them when I posted the inquiry. I awakened to swift response from David, cordial and offering assistance. As I have my steering box at a local specialist I am in the process of coordinating a call between David and the shop.
-tj
Thanks for the endorsement. I’d already emailed them when I posted the inquiry. I awakened to swift response from David, cordial and offering assistance. As I have my steering box at a local specialist I am in the process of coordinating a call between David and the shop.
-tj
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1,138 Posts
Mike,
David was kind enough to call me yesterday morning, but what had begun as optimism that I’d found a source for the needed caged roller bearing and cup quickly turned less encouraging.
With the acknowledgment that I’ve not laid eyes on the actual internals of the box (Straightline Steering is the one that opened it and found the worn bearing and cup) I was surprised to hear David’s assertion that my box most likely needed a complete rebuild and that no other shop could do the work. With respect to his expertise on the subject, it’s hard for me to imagine that the other components in the box need replacement, and that it’s as complicated as he predicts to rebuild.
My 1900 had ~50,000 miles on her when she was taken off the road. She was stored inside for decades and was/is remarkably complete and original when I bought her. Many fragile parts that would have perished in anything less than very favorable conditions have survived. I’m surprised that the box had significant wear on it with such low mileage but will allow that if the box was improperly maintained such wear could occur. According to David the Marles box was to be lubricated with oil, not grease, and that if it was either run out of oil, or replaced with grease, wear could occur. Fair enough.
The tech at Straightline has said that they don’t see any other wear on the internals other than the bearing race and cup. This is also a shop with decades of experience on all sorts of steering boxes, and access to very advanced technology operated by highly skilled staff. It’s hard for me to believe that with the right parts they can’t rebuild the box.
Which is why I was a bit flabbergasted to hear David’s assertion that it needed a complete rebuild, which was the only way to do it right, and that such work would cost ~$3300 not including shipping.
I’m still trying to figure out the condition of the box and how to get the required parts. It appears that David and his company are the sole licensors/distributors of the internals. Whether or not he will sell me, or Straightline the bearing and cup remains to be seen.
-tj
-tj
David was kind enough to call me yesterday morning, but what had begun as optimism that I’d found a source for the needed caged roller bearing and cup quickly turned less encouraging.
With the acknowledgment that I’ve not laid eyes on the actual internals of the box (Straightline Steering is the one that opened it and found the worn bearing and cup) I was surprised to hear David’s assertion that my box most likely needed a complete rebuild and that no other shop could do the work. With respect to his expertise on the subject, it’s hard for me to imagine that the other components in the box need replacement, and that it’s as complicated as he predicts to rebuild.
My 1900 had ~50,000 miles on her when she was taken off the road. She was stored inside for decades and was/is remarkably complete and original when I bought her. Many fragile parts that would have perished in anything less than very favorable conditions have survived. I’m surprised that the box had significant wear on it with such low mileage but will allow that if the box was improperly maintained such wear could occur. According to David the Marles box was to be lubricated with oil, not grease, and that if it was either run out of oil, or replaced with grease, wear could occur. Fair enough.
The tech at Straightline has said that they don’t see any other wear on the internals other than the bearing race and cup. This is also a shop with decades of experience on all sorts of steering boxes, and access to very advanced technology operated by highly skilled staff. It’s hard for me to believe that with the right parts they can’t rebuild the box.
Which is why I was a bit flabbergasted to hear David’s assertion that it needed a complete rebuild, which was the only way to do it right, and that such work would cost ~$3300 not including shipping.
I’m still trying to figure out the condition of the box and how to get the required parts. It appears that David and his company are the sole licensors/distributors of the internals. Whether or not he will sell me, or Straightline the bearing and cup remains to be seen.
-tj
-tj
Hi TJ, I off course have not seen the inside of your steering box, but the same goes for David. It really surprises me that he can give you an idea about the cost without having seen it.
Normally I would assume that you and him were talking about different things, that happens to me not being native english speaking, or even worse doing business in Italy.
What I could imagine is that David, as some sort of warning, after receiving your steering box, after costly shipping, then finds out he can't repair it, and he is ending up replacing all the parts, bearings, seals, worm , roller, shafts, etc. And that ending up to the number you mentioned, still too much I would say, but maybe it is realistic? See it as a worst case scenario. Mind you, steering is important enough, so you want to get it right, and with David doing the entire box, you will have the best possible steering possible.
Still convinced David is the best man to do this kind of job. So in a way I am hoping this is what he tried to say?
But now back to your steering box, would I go with David's advice? No, not based on just a phonecall!
You apparently trust the guys at Straightline Steering, those are the guys that have seen the inside of your box! So I would definitely stick to their opinion, and not David's in this case. The guys at Staightline are the professionals, no reason to doubt them.
So if they say a bearing and cup is all you need, order that from David.
By the way, his remark on filling the box is important. Never use grease, only grade 140 oil.
Mike
Normally I would assume that you and him were talking about different things, that happens to me not being native english speaking, or even worse doing business in Italy.
What I could imagine is that David, as some sort of warning, after receiving your steering box, after costly shipping, then finds out he can't repair it, and he is ending up replacing all the parts, bearings, seals, worm , roller, shafts, etc. And that ending up to the number you mentioned, still too much I would say, but maybe it is realistic? See it as a worst case scenario. Mind you, steering is important enough, so you want to get it right, and with David doing the entire box, you will have the best possible steering possible.
Still convinced David is the best man to do this kind of job. So in a way I am hoping this is what he tried to say?
But now back to your steering box, would I go with David's advice? No, not based on just a phonecall!
You apparently trust the guys at Straightline Steering, those are the guys that have seen the inside of your box! So I would definitely stick to their opinion, and not David's in this case. The guys at Staightline are the professionals, no reason to doubt them.
So if they say a bearing and cup is all you need, order that from David.
By the way, his remark on filling the box is important. Never use grease, only grade 140 oil.
Mike
A bearing can be measured, or removed and then taken with you, and then go and talk to your local bearing supplier and see how you go. It is highly unlikely, although it is an Alfa Romeo, that is a special bearing. Manufacturers of components design things usually for stock bearings for cost saving reasons.
Pete
Pete
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