[touring63]

hello, this very rare alfa with much patina standing in padua-motorshow. this type is for me absolute unknown.

 

[tubut]

The car in question has been discussed in this thread when it was for sale at auction at Luzzago last year. Olcyk clearly spelled out that the car was built in about 2003 but then contradicted himself by saying that it was a '50s project brought to end in the '70s. Be that as it may, I'd say the conclusion is that it's not an original Alfa -- but, in my opinion, a very nice and tastefully created Bitsa.

BTW: The side mirrors are a hint of the car's modern provenance.

 

[dretceterini]

Yes, it's a modern "bitsa". There are some REAL Alfa parts used, and I think the project was started in the 1970s or 1980s. There are dozens of modern Alfa "bitsa" cars. Many are made in Argentina in the last 30 years, and are made to try and look like they were built in the 1940s or 1950. The idea is to try and pass them off as real cars and ell them to someone who doesn't know what they really are, for big bucks. This is the kind of thing that is happening with Alfa TZs. I know of one particular "modern" TZ atht was sold as a real car, and when the buyer found out it was modern, but with some rel, period parts, the seller was sued. The sller took the car back, and I think the buyer also on some money for fraud. I do NOT know all the exact details of the case.
There are any number of dealer/brokers doing things like this that HAVEN'T been caught as yet, because the buyer doden't know what he REALLY bought. A REALLY good example of this is an Alfa 6c2300B MM "fake" that was in the Ponder Collection, for almost $1 MILLION. The car has a real Alfa 6c2300 lungo motor, gearbox, rear end and some other real stuff, but a 2 carb intake manifold off a 6c2300B MM, rather than the single carb intake was used, to make it look like it IS a real 6c2300B MM. The chassis is substantially a fake; most of it being built in Argentina in the 1970s or 1980s. The coachwork is modern too, but built in a mid-to-late 1930s style. Pretty, yes. A fake that someone bought because he didn't know the REAL story? Sadly, yes to that too....

 

[carlo]

I checked Coys for their current auctions and found the car listed for the auction in Padova yesterday.
Here is the link:

Coys

They call it: "1968 ATL 2000 Sports Coupe"


Best regards
Ciao Carlo

 

[dretceterini]

I checked Coys for their current auctions and found the car listed for the auction in Padova yesterday.
Here is the link:

Coys

They call it: "1968 ATL 2000 Sports Coupe"


Best regards
Ciao Carlo

For $30,000 yes. For 75,000 Euros hell no!

 

[6ccorsa]

Does anyone have any comments on Coys ATL story about this car? If it's all wrong they are quite brave to put it in the sales catalogue.

 

[6ccorsa]

The car in question has been discussed in this thread when it was for sale at auction at Luzzago last year. Olcyk clearly spelled out that the car was built in about 2003 but then contradicted himself by saying that it was a '50s project brought to end in the '70s. Be that as it may, I'd say the conclusion is that it's not an original Alfa -- but, in my opinion, a very nice and tastefully created Bitsa.

BTW: The side mirrors are a hint of the car's modern provenance.

Actually Olczyk didn't contradict himself. He was quoting what Luzzago stated.
It is quite interesting to contrast his assertion that he saw it being built around 2003 with what Coys say about ATL building it. They can't both be right, and maybe neither is.....

 

[6ccorsa]

What did the car fetch? Coys haven't posted the results yet, and when I phoned them the guy said he knew it had sold but he didn't have the price.

Unlike Stu I'd pay well over $30000 for that car. History isn't everything!

 

[dretceterini]

What did the car fetch? Coys haven't posted the results yet, and when I phoned them the guy said he knew it had sold but he didn't have the price.

Unlike Stu I'd pay well over $30000 for that car. History isn't everything!

What would you pay? Personally, I have no interest in "bitzas". I rather spend $30,000 for a perfect Giulia Super...

 

[6ccorsa]

What would you pay? Personally, I have no interest in "bitzas". I rather spend $30,000 for a perfect Giulia Super...

I just love good bitzas/specials. I like building them and I like driving them.
I'd have to see the car in the flesh before I could put my price on it. It may of course be badly built and conceived.
As a matter of curiosity would you call the Ferrari Breadvan a bitza, or the Nembo Spider, the Thinwall Special, or the Lurani CABI-Cattaneo Alfa etc etc?
If they're bitzas I take it they're of no interest to you.
If they're not bitzas, why aren't they bitzas?

All this of course intended in very friendly spirit . There's room for many viewpoints.....

 

[tubut]

If they're not bitzas, why aren't they bitzas?

I venture to state my opinion that a bitsa is a car that is not original but has been put together, at some point when the originals were no longer made, from bits and pieces of several cars. On the other hand, "specials" like the Lurani CABI-Cattaneo Alfa seems to be made from parts during the time original cars were produced.

I have nothing against bitsas that have been built as a "tribute" to a certain model or design, the same way I have nothing against reproduction cars -- as long as they are declared as such. However, the problems start when bitsas get promoted, often in a deceptive way, as original cars with obscure history.

 

[technobob]

I like Tubut's distinction between "bitsas" (made long after production has ceased) and "specials" (made while the parts were still "fresh", so to speak). I think this distinction also addresses dretceterini's point WRT the Thinwall Special, Ferrari Breadvan and the Nembo Spider. It may not be a perfect distinction, but it could serve as the very sound basis or starting point of such a distinction. [For the record, I did take a slight liberty with Tubut's classification by adding "long" to his bitsa criteria.]

 

[dretceterini]

I just love good bitzas/specials. I like building them and I like driving them.
I'd have to see the car in the flesh before I could put my price on it. It may of course be badly built and conceived.
As a matter of curiosity would you call the Ferrari Breadvan a bitza, or the Nembo Spider, the Thinwall Special, or the Lurani CABI-Cattaneo Alfa etc etc?
If they're bitzas I take it they're of no interest to you.
If they're not bitzas, why aren't they bitzas?

All this of course intended in very friendly spirit . There's room for many viewpoints.....

Cars that were modified "in period" they are not bitsas. Cars done 40-50 years later, and often mis-represented as period cars, are at best bitzas, and in many cases, should just be called replicars, like the breadvan built on an Iso base.

 

[6ccorsa]

Cars that were modified "in period" they are not bitsas. Cars done 40-50 years later, and often mis-represented as period cars, are at best bitzas, and in many cases, should just be called replicars, like the breadvan built on an Iso base.

I agree.
So 2 cars can be EXACTLY the same, and we can agree to call the one built this year a bitza and the other one built in period a special. 'Replicar' is too ugly a word for anything but a real dog of a thing I believe.
Okay, you aren't at all interested in the one built this year, but you may love the other.
I like em both.
Actually as a machine I could much prefer a properly period-finished bitza (unusual of course) to the usual over-restored special, call it what you like. (As an aside I would have say that most of all the old cars I see are over-restored ESPECIALLY the racers, although VSCC in the UK is often an exception)
The fact that some people misrepresent some bitzas as period specials doesn't of course affect the machine qua machine at all.
I even find it quite amusing that there are so many crooks and wide-boys out there. One or two of the biggest rogues are actually quite amusing, although most of the dealers (honest and otherwise) wouldn't be my companions of choice on a walking holiday.
I do have to admit that I would far rather the car with history than the one without all things being equal (which they never are), but ten bitzas to one special for the same money wins hands down with me.
Vive la difference!

 

[dretceterini]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. I have no interest in modern "replicas", bitzas, or whatever you want to call them, at any price. Far too many are being presented as real, period cars by certain unethical dealers. I'm sure you know as well as I do who many of these dealers are.

I have little interest in over-restored "garage queens" too. What attracts me most is a real car with some patina, in perfect mechanical condition, at a fair price...