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For $170K, it would have to be absolutely 100% correct and so perfect that you would not drive it!!
And for my $170K, I would want it correct...
Pretty poor showing for $170K if you ask me!!
Good point 100% correct to get $170k

What I have found is that even though there were so many cars built (many have been destroyed I think 80% of cars have been destroyed) with so many owners and some owning a few of the same version in the past or today, we the owners still don't know what is 100% correct. We may know some aspect of the car well, but not all of it.

It's no wonder the restoration companies don't know how to bring the cars back to 100% correct, along with the auction houses not knowing either when they are trying to sell the cars. I've even notice some experience parts vendors don't even know either, which is a worry. Why it's because the 105's have not had the 30 years lead up time of being valuable like Ferraris and 105's were not selling for $100k 30 years ago thus the owners, restoration companies, auction houses, (vendors ?) think the car is original when it's not!
I have contacted three companies in the last 18 months with regards to 1600 GT Veloce cars and 1750 GTV they are selling. I have pointed out where I have obtained my information, some of it's posted here, so I've invited them to read my and others posts on Alfabb along with viewing the summaries as I have posted on Wiki which quote primary information sources, like factory parts manuals, FIA documents, build certificates https://www.fcaheritage.com/en-uk/classic-services and the Classic Alfa Romeo Registry run by Patrick Hung and Andrew Watry https://www.classicalfaromeoregistry.com/home. I think most in the industry are open to being informed which is great.

I accept not every one is into original cars but if you are going to tell me it's original I will have a look at it and give you my opinion regardless (quoting primary information sources to correct any miss information) as only then if we all do this we can bring the 105s to the 100% original status, which they deserve.
 

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This discussion reminds me of the auction at Pebble Beach a number of years ago where a GT Veloce 1600 was sold at auction with a nonstandard red vinyl interior (GT Veloce 1600 never had red vinyl interiors).

To RM Sothbey's credit they have mentioned the car had original brown leather interior and now it's black leather. At least we are on record before the 17th August the date of the auction at Monterey that the 1750 GTV never came with a black leather interior. Even though this car is listed as having black leather interior it does not have the original Bertone DeLuxe leather patterns on the seats or the door cards as installed by the factory.
 

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"80% of (105) cars have been destroyed" ... and yet I get told off when somebody decides to ruin another with yet another bloody repower. Sigh

These cars were never that common, and now really rare ... thanks to rust and enthusiastic driving.

Oh well, they are just cars ... I guess
Pete
 

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"80% of (105) cars have been destroyed" ... and yet I get told off when somebody decides to ruin another with yet another bloody repower. Sigh

These cars were never that common, and now really rare ... thanks to rust and enthusiastic driving.

Oh well, they are just cars ... I guess
Pete
It's ok Pete you'll have yours on the road next year and that'll be another 1 saved. Well maybe the year after 0:)
 

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This discussion reminds me of the auction at Pebble Beach a number of years ago where a GT Veloce 1600 was sold at auction with a nonstandard black vinyl interior (GT Veloce 1600 never had black vinyl or black leather interiors).

To RM Sothbey's credit they have mentioned the car had original brown leather interior and now it's black leather. At least we are on record before the 17th August the date of the auction at Monterey that the 1750 GTV never came with a black leather interior. Even though this car is listed as having black leather interior it does not have the original Bertone DeLuxe leather patterns on the seats or the door cards as installed by the factory.
And I still think that it would not have taken too much research, by the restorers or the owner, to find that there should not be any fender turn signals on this model!! They must have been added in during the resto.
 

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'Ground up restoration to original factory specifications' is different from a 'Ground up restoration'.
'Ground up restoration to original factory specifications' is a restoration that has a specific time stamp as what you would expect the car to be like when it left the factory gate.

'Ground up restoration' has an arbitrary time stamp, for example John purchased the car from the first owner, who had previously modified the car. John did a ground up restoration on the car; the time stamp on the restoration could be as John found the car which includes any changes the first owner made.
 

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And I still think that it would not have taken too much research, by the restorers or the owner, to find that there should not be any fender turn signals on this model!! They must have been added in during the resto.
I still think people do not know the 105 cars that well, and we see these non standard parts being included.
 

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What is not correct on this GTV.

This model also should have an all-black shift knob without shift pattern, the shift pattern was for USA Alfas. LHD GTVs should have the drivers wiper on top of the passenger one. The rear hood seal should be 1 piece, not 2. The trunk seal should be on the body not the lid. The gas tank should be black on an S1 Euro 1750. Missing the chrome trim on the armrests. Front door cards are from an S2 1750 GTV. The dash seems to be missing some little round warning lights to the left and right of the main gauges. The center console is missing the 2 round black speaker covers. I saw a restored S1 Euro 1750 GTV in Toronto with the extra front sidelights and told the owner it wasn't stock. I would expect perfection for $170000. But easy to change except the sidelights. This is still a lovely looking GTV.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
The one thing we will never know is the motivation behind this spend. If the restorer told the owner that when finished, he would have a car as it left the showroom then he did a disservice, as many of you have pointed out the mistakes(or whatever you want to call them). Maybe the owner is a friend of the owner of Coachwerks. Maybe the owner of the car is the owner of Coachwerks and the $170K is retail, and in reality the spend is much less.

But if RM Sotheby's is representing your car, then you are at a level of success in life that I can only dream of. And I can only hope this for sells as much as RM has it pegged for.
 

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I can only hope this for sells as much as RM has it pegged for.
Exactly, this could be where RM Sotheby may be thinking their client market will accept the spend of $170k from a recognized restoration company and buy it even though it has some non original components. In other words if restoration companies are 'having a go' its an indicator that the cars are now in on the front stage and that prices may stabilize as they fine tune their restoration approach. But I think prices may go up as they spend more time on the cars doing research to get them close to original factory condition. Of course if an owner already has an extensive knowledge of their car this can save time in understanding what needs to be done, which can complement their choice of restorer. Especial in reinstating the profiles around the crease lines on the side of the fenders and doors. You will notice that some restorations are partitioned into sections like panel/paint, interior, mechanical and electrical where independent specialist attend to each part.

I've just made estimates of costs of parts and labour via my current 1600 GT Veloce restoration project and I'm aware of the difficulty in getting rare and hard to find parts. Many here on Alfabb have agreed from their own experience as to costings and we have used our in-depth knowledge to make estimates of value of cars and on a few occasions we have been correct.

We the members of Alfabb are part of the Classic car community for 105's, along with all the other stakeholders. I would like to propose that the Alfabb community is now at the cutting edge of knowing the 105s better than some if not most of the other stakeholders.

In the future when some 105s start selling for ~$500k I'm sure they will be factory perfect :)

Steve
 

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I really wonder about the whole "original" thing, I have a 1970 RHD stepfront junior and to the dismay of originalists I am going to repower it with a 2 litre, due to the project sitting and for a while I have been trying to get some interest in the 1300 motor which is in good condition, now in New Zealand there are many repowered 1300 105's and if they were worth a lot more money in original condition then surely someone would be interested in the motor at close to scrap value, but no , the only person who has shown interest wanted to put it in an Escort.
 

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I really wonder about the whole "original" thing
Personal preferences and cultural trends for non original is what happened allot in the past for various reasons. What I know is for some 105 models going from non-original to original is more difficult than going from original to non-original. It's your car, so your decision.
 

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My point was I am offering a 1300 motor complete for what the carbs and the sump are worth and no one is interested in making their non original modified Gt Junior / Spider junior more valuable by fitting the correct motor, if they already have a 2 litre in the car it would be for minus money as the 2 litre motors are in demand.
 

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Yes carbs are DCOE40 28 , engine is still in car and will try one more time to sell complete but otherwise they will be available.Or 40 DCOE 28 , whatever is standard in 1300. one of the covers is not original but I'm sure the carbs are a matching set.
 

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I really wonder about the whole "original" thing, I have a 1970 RHD stepfront junior and to the dismay of originalists I am going to repower it with a 2 litre
Although it occasionally drives originalists to distraction, there has always been a strong element within Alfa culture that respects and practices period modifications---performance enhancements that were both common and popular when our Alfas were more current than they are now. Certainly the Portello factory guys enjoyed experimenting (as did most Italian Alfisti in period). The appeal was obvious in that it really doesn't take much work to extract a lot more performance out of a 105 series Alfa. Putting a fully modified 2 liter in my 1.3 Super along with a close-ratio gearbox absolutely transformed my car. I'm sure you'll have a similar experience when it fit a 2 liter into your Junior.
 

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Nothing wrong with putting a bigger Nord engine in any 105, can be easily undone and still looks correct.

But putting some other manufacturers engine in ... errrrrrr



But there is joy in learning to drive an original old car. Takes personal adaptation to get the best out of the machine and is slowish fun
Pete
 

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I have read this entire thread and looked through the pictures and catalog, my earlier comment was "bye a GTAR". It would seem to me for the money spent , a period correct restoration could have been done, I am not an expert on Alfa Paint but was that Silver offered at the time of production? This said, if the owners intent was to build what he wanted..more power to him! If he wanted a Pebble Beach Car ...not so much...as it does not match up with the build sheet.

One more observation, when the rear suspension was rebuilt should the trunk have been weighted down before they tightened up the trailing arms etc.? The car doesnot sit right to me...
 

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I am restoring (slowly) a 79 Spider estimating by the time I am done 230 Hours, no mechanicals-sheet metal, carpet, paint, upholstery original, including new top and all the body panels, paint supplies, already spent $10,000
$176, in receipts is staggering.
 
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