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Discussion Starter #1
Car is a 164L with the 12V engine.

Okay, so my friend lost power while driving and engine completely stopped, didn't know what happened. Car wouldn't stay on, and stepping on the gas made it want to die. Car got towed back to house, I came over to look at it, and sadly it had a bad case of rod knock. Weird thing is that he changed oil only 2 weeks ago and there is plenty of oil.

Anybody know some reputable Alfa dealing shops that can rebuild the bottom end in Southern California? How much does it usually run for? If we were to do it ourselves, how would we go about doing it, drop the pan?

And what about an engine swap?

Video:
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Did you check to see if the timing belt had skipped a tooth or two or three? Sounds like valves hitting pistons (and vice versa) to me, not rod knock or bearing failure. Needless to say you don't need to run it anymore, just doing more damage.
Charles
 

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Discussion Starter #3
wow really? the car sounds like a diesel and knocking sound is really pronounce. is there a way to check if the belt skipped a tooth?

and yea, it wasn't run after the car died, it was just started up because they didn't know so I had to see what was wrong.
 

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How far south are you? I know two really good people in San Diego and in Orange there is Alfa Performance Connection @ 714-279-0500. They did a lot of work on the GTV6 I just bought but it was by the previous owner so I do not have any first hand exp with them.
 

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wow really? the car sounds like a diesel and knocking sound is really pronounce. is there a way to check if the belt skipped a tooth?

and yea, it wasn't run after the car died, it was just started up because they didn't know so I had to see what was wrong.
I think you skipped a few teeth on the belt. I suggest getting the template and printing it out and check the timing at TDC.
There are marks on the cam pulleys to use the template.

Sounds like the last customers car I had with was out 18˚ (about 2.5 teeth) on rear cam and 7˚ on the other.

Jason
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Thanks guys, I'll check the timing this afternoon. I figured yea if it was rod knock, why won't the engine stay on then. I know it can knock all it wants to until a piston blows out of the block, but it will stay running.

Hopefully it is the timing, I really dont want to pull the bottom end. The knock is TOO loud to be rod knock I think.
 

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You will likely be pulling a head or two and replacing valves though. It is likely the rear head. At the very least it means a top-end rebuild.
Charles
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
How do you remove the rear head timing belt cover?


Edit: never mind I got it off.

Looks like the belt is missing some teeth, so far I see three. Looks like it jumped alright.
 

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If you are using timing template to check timing just remove round center cap in front and rear covers to see timing marks on cam hubs.

To remove rear upper timing cover without breaking it depending on VIN number of car there are 3 or 4 ways to do it. Do you have oil cooler lines (same size going into lower and mid water pump thermostat housings) , no oil cooler, one oil cooler line going into mid thermostat housing and large heater return line going into lower water pump housing on top of pump?

Whatever configuration it is a tight fit. If water lines in the way you have to disconnect cooler/heater tubing hoses.

There are three bolts for rear upper TB cover and bottom rear you can not see with rear inner fender liner in place. also if large heater return pipe it is bolteds to rear head again out of view even with rear fender liner removed but there should be a hole in body to run a socket and extension through to get hold down bolt out of rear head.

I also pop air cleaner loose (to save air inlet hose from damage), remove left tire and left inner fender liner, jack tranny, unbolt tranny mount and remove engine upper dog bone mount and let tranny down on subframe to move timing belt cover and engine away from right inner chassis rail so you can get cover out without breaking it.

To much work you say well then pull it out and hope you don't break it.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Well, the timing marks are nowhere near close to where they should be on top dead center, and trying to align the cam gears with the template it doesn't really work because when lining up the rear cam the front cam doesn't line up, it's off by some seven degrees or so, but when on TDC, NONE of the cam gear markings line up with the template. Also, the timing belt is missing teeth.


I'll provide pictures. Thanks guys. Sounds like we're going to have to rebuilt the top end.

Edit: sorry I was missing a word, the template works, i was just saying that trying to align the cam gears with the template doesn't work because yes the timing is completely whacked.
 

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There is marks on the plastic cover. At lest my car has one. did the 164 remove the marks? it is a lot easer to use then the template.
when you do it use good valve seals. I have used the black ones that come in the gaskit kit. and they start to leak right away.
use the green like IAP. or the white like Centerline.
 

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No timing marks on 164 covers like GTV6 or Milano covers had.
 

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What do you mean, the template doesn't work? Of course the template works. Your cams are just out of time, as evidenced also by valves hitting pistons! :eek: :( Sorry, lots of work ahead. This car is not easy to work on when first getting familiar with it, so be forwarned. Lots of patience and persistance is need but plenty of info is available here on this forum, so no worries there. :D
Charles


Well, the timing marks are nowhere near close to where they should be on top dead center, and trying to align the cam gears with the template doesn't really work because when lining up the rear cam the front cam doesn't line up, it's off by some seven degrees or so, but when on TDC, NONE of the cam gear markings line up with the template. Also, the timing belt is missing teeth.


I'll provide pictures. Thanks guys. Sounds like we're going to have to rebuilt the top end.
 

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The cams and followers on my 155 V6 are now so worn it almost sounds like this... :( Still runs OKish though. Just need earplugs.....
 

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The cams and followers on my 155 V6 are now so worn it almost sounds like this... :( Still runs OKish though. Just need earplugs.....

So what engine do you have in the 155? If 12v V6 are you sure you don't just need to adjust exhaust rocker arm clearances?
 

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The assembled multitude are correct. The P.O. of my wife's car had his tensioner spring break (I believe) and on startup it skipped to 2 teeth advanced on both front and rear cams. Then he drove it 30 miles home, quite possibly doing most of the damage it suffered during the drive. Don't run your engine any more before re-timing the cams. It is possible that you've bent valves already, but possible that they're OK, too.

If there is no hard coolant line running behind the car (this line is held in place by a screw attached to a plate attached to the rear valve cover -- no plate/screw means no hard line) then you have an easier time ahead. just drain coolant and disconnect at least the upper coolant jumper to the oil cooler from the rear of the thermostat housing.

If you have the hard line, you will have to remove this jumper, but it will be 3/4" hose instead of 1/2" hose. You will also need to remove the screw holding the hadr lines in place. It is typically a 17mm head bolt with 10 mm x 1.25 mm threads. Gain access by removing the rear gravel shield on the right front wheel well and stick a socket on an extension through the fender sheet metal to disconnect the bolt. It should be easy with the gravel shield removed, and near impossibly without removing the shield. Then remove the rear timing belt cover.

You'll have to do this to get clearance to move the bottom edge of the t-belt cover over the aux. gear. It's an hours long exercise in futility otherwise. I know this from experience. The lower rear t-belt cover has a difficult to access screw just over the power steering pump, so don't overlook that, either.

Rick's template is marvelous. I wish I'd thought of it, but I'm glad I didn't have to do a t-belt installation before I learned of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Yea, the engine wasn't run after it stopped, only that time to show on the video. It wasn't drivable anyways. Perhaps the damage is already severe. I'll pop the covers and take a look. I'll be sure to upload pics.
 

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So what engine do you have in the 155? If 12v V6 are you sure you don't just need to adjust exhaust rocker arm clearances?
Hi Steve,

I didn't want to hijack the thread..

..but nope, cams and followers are totally toast. Inlet lobes and followers are OK bit the exhaust side are ruined. I've done this topic to death elswhere, and the 75 crowd seem to acknowledge it, but the 12V design is hard on cams. The 155 V6 is a 2.5 12V with a similar water rail setup to the 24V motors and a 6-pole coil but otherwise pretty much identical to the 3.0 12V.

Cheers
 

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Is the problem with the pressure loading on the cam/follower contact area? Maybe with the surface hardening of the materials? I know little about this except for its being critical. As cam profiles are exaggerated and RPMs increase, is it impossible for Alfa to go to a roller design? Space available might not permit this, I guess.
 
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