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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

My 1995 24v 164 recently started sounding odd when starter motor cranking, speedo jumping and general odd electrics which made me suspect the battery.

Tightened battery terminals and kept alarm off for few days and it cured itself but this morning it came back. Started but turned over slowly with whirring/whining noise I think is coming from one of the front speakers (left side of the car anyway). 5 hours later, going to drive home, didn’t crank at all. All lights come on as normal but turning the ignition key to engage the starter does zero – not even the sound of the solenoid or any sign on the dashborad voltmeter that am turning the key to start it at all.

Any ideas? Have abandoned the car at work.

Thanks,

Richard
 

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How old is the battery? I'd check the battery voltage. The starter won't do anything below about 11.8 volts.
 

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A depleted battery may give a 12v reading but under load it may not be giving enough amps to crank an engine. If you have a tester that gives a dummy load, that will tell you all you need to know, otherwise it's not going to be much use. Jump leads for a quick test but if you know your battery is due for a change, then do that anyway. Otherwise, it could be a bad ground. A quick test for a bad ground is to put a jumper cable from engine to the body via something conductive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks guys.

Have begun to doubt it is the battery because the dash lights don't dim at all when turning the key to try and crank it. If the starter is trying to turn and drawing power in the process surely there would be some visible drain - even the dash voltmeter doesn't go down.
Or could it be the solenoid is not even trying to engage the starter as the voltage is too low? Don't have car to hand but think it was in the 11 to 12 volt region.
 

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If the battery is too low to start the car...in the 11 to 11.8 volt range, all the lights, horn windows, etc work normally, but the starter won't do anything. It doesn't even try to turn. I suggest the 1st thing you rule out is the battery. It's the simplest place to start trouble shooting. I suggest you take your volt meter ( a battery load tester would be better) and check the voltage across the battery terminals. If the voltage is below about 11.8 you either need to charge the battery or buy a new one. I like to get the biggest, baddest battery I can for these old cars. Get a Type 31 battery from a heavy truck shop.
Walmart may carry Type 31, but not the good ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
If the battery is too low to start the car...in the 11 to 11.8 volt range, all the lights, horn windows, etc work normally, but the starter won't do anything. It doesn't even try to turn. I suggest the 1st thing you rule out is the battery. It's the simplest place to start trouble shooting. I suggest you take your volt meter ( a battery load tester would be better) and check the voltage across the battery terminals. If the voltage is below about 11.8 you either need to charge the battery or buy a new one. I like to get the biggest, baddest battery I can for these old cars. Get a Type 31 battery from a heavy truck shop.
Walmart may carry Type 31, but not the good ones.
Thanks. Sounds interesting and could well be my situation. Battery is 5 years old so prob due replacing - easier job than starter too.
Will try jumping it to bring the voltage up and see what happens.

Cheers v much,

Richard
 

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Bypassing starter relay to test 164 starter in car.

Thanks. Sounds interesting and could well be my situation. Battery is 5 years old so prob due replacing - easier job than starter too.
Will try jumping it to bring the voltage up and see what happens.

Cheers v much,

Richard
To test starter by itself I disconnect G151 big round connector behind false firewall and apply 12v directly to pin 1 hole in female end of connector (engine side). If you hold female side in your hand and look at it the pin 1 hole is top left pin in outer circle (two pins side by side there in outer circle).

Pin one female side hole powers the starter solenoid to energize starter solenoid and spill starter.

180 degrees out in outer circle only one pin socket.

Report your results/findings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
To test starter by itself I disconnect G151 big round connector behind false firewall and apply 12v directly to pin 1 hole in female end of connector (engine side). If you hold female side in your hand and look at it the pin 1 hole is top left pin in outer circle (two pins side by side there in outer circle).

Pin one female side hole powers the starter solenoid to energize starter solenoid and spill starter.

180 degrees out in outer circle only one pin socket.

Report your results/findings.

Thanks Steve,

Added electric power via jump leads today and still a zero re - sult so not a low-voltage battery issue. Given that the car is 16 years old going to replace the starter motor+solenoid - even if doesn't fix it must be well due by now. Will post the results in 2 weeks. In the meantime have borrowed a friends 164 24v Cloverleaf - suspension stuck in sport mode. What an awful fill in car to be stuck with, eh? ;-) Everyone wants to race it because of the body kit - all lost so far. Why do they think their 2 litre Audi or bigger BMW is going to get anything but pasted? If the straights don't win it (they usually do) the corners will.

Cheers,

Richard
 

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Go easy on that Q4 now!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks :)

If the solenoid test at the connector goes OK is there a fuse somewhere further back that could be preventing it from getting power?

Cheers,

Richard
 

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1991 164L
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If you can get starter to work by applying power directly to starter solenoid energizing terminal on front of solenoid or at that small black 2.5mm wire that goes to female pin socket 1 of G151, then with key on in start position check for 12v power at male pin 1 of G151 to see if starter relay I10 is working or getting power from car's starter circuitry.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks again Steve. Can I ask where relay I10 is located? Am aiming to get to the car later today to see what the results are.

Cheers,

Richard
 

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Thanks again Steve. Can I ask where relay I10 is located? Am aiming to get to the car later today to see what the results are.

Cheers,

Richard
On LHD models it is in row of relays under dash in center area near back of a/c panel to right of driver's right knee and view with fuse panel door open.

So maybe on your RHD model to left and forward of your left knee area.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hi,

Steve you nailed it with the pin 1 solenoid check method. Have power on the male side but feeding power into the female, solenoid side, reveals no response. So going to replace the starter motor.

Many, many thanks for your help with this.

Cheers,

Richard
 

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1991 164L
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Hi,

Steve you nailed it with the pin 1 solenoid check method. Have power on the male side but feeding power into the female, solenoid side, reveals no response. So going to replace the starter motor.

Many, many thanks for your help with this.

Cheers,

Richard
You are porbably right it is starter but do check that pin 1 wire end connection at starter solenoid, too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
You are porbably right it is starter but do check that pin 1 wire end connection at starter solenoid, too.

Have you ever known this to come off?

The car is 16 years old and it is the original starter so would normally think this unlikely but then it did recently drop the hollow exhaust gas tube bolt that connects to the bottom of the rear manifold and that had been there for 16 years too.

When I jack the car up to take a look is it best to access under right or left side of car?

Thanks,

Richard
 

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As I say to my wife your right or mine? I suspect it is easier to see starter solenoid wire coming at it from right side of car which is my right to and your RHD models driver's side (my passenger side).

Either way hard to see with exhaust pipe and on EGR model EGR tubing and starter heat side and intermediate axle.

I changed Myron's starter once on his 95LS with EGR valve tubing etc and it was a real bear to get enough stuff out of the way to get it out.

I had to drop exhaust system front pipes and cat, remove IM axle, drain tranny fluid, remove rear exhaust header, starter front support (certain 24v models only).

I think I ended up having to remove intake plenum, too so I could get to exhaust header bolts holding it to head.

Job bad on a 12v but really BAD on a 24v I am sorry to say.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Hi Steve,

Have seen the starter and both power cables still attached so it is starter out time.

And yes it does look a total pig to get out - and that is an understatement, worse than doing a cambelt change. Had held some hope of being able to change it in the works carpark but lost that idea after seeing its location and buried the idea after reading how hard even you found it.

If I take off the plenum chamber is it pheasible to extract it upwards rather than downwards?

Thanks,

Richard
 

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Hi Steve,


If I take off the plenum chamber is it pheasible to extract it upwards rather than downwards?

Thanks,

Richard
No not enough room with rear head on engine to come out the top.

On 12v engine Mr T. has managed to rotate starter and go down with it supposedly without having to take rear exhaust manifold (header on 24v) off. Not sure thay works on 24v. I have only done one 24v starter.
 
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