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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

With a rear jacking point vanishing into the bodywork and a front repaired jacking point bending upwards, the structural integrity of my 164 has to now be called into question.

Ironically all the main panels and doors are rust free, as is the rest of the car. Advice from garages has been to scrap the car - it is old, parts are expensive and hard to find and even if welded the rust will come back behind the weld. The fact I am writing this probably gives some clue as to the direction of my response. Am not scrapping the car.

Instead I am attacking the problem, the rust in the side sills and rear arches. Can't afford a full repair so just having the jacking points replated and then the fun starts and am very much open to suggestions on this. My current plan is to drill the sills and inject marine-grade zinc phosphate. Should I inject some rust killer first though or will the zinc-phosphate do the job? Is zinc-phosphate the best treatment to add? Anyone know anything better?

Thanks in advance...
 

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As an update, instead of zinc phosphate, I have started focusing on various rust converters. These are supposed to convert the iron oxide of any existing rust to a more stable form of iron. Some, the ones I am now most interested in, claim to convert it to a water-repelling stable form. One in particular claims to be used on oil rig legs and by the British army.
Have also been testing Hammerite Kurust, which is a rust converter but, on the bottle, says it should be painted over for protection as soon as possible. Doesn't sound like it forms a water-repellent layer so used it on a piece of rusty metal yesterday and today have dropped it into salty water to see what happens.
As owners of great cars, with little/no support of the manufacturer, it really seems to be up to us to find answers to keeping their creations alive. I read today that only about 100 164s are still in use in the UK. How many are in use in the US? How many did there use to be?
 

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Rust can be won only by cutting it. All other methods can only slow down the process. Now there are many different chemicals that stop rust. But them are based on orthophosphoric acid. It is an aqueous concentrated 85% solution of phosphoric acid H3PO4. I use just this.
But all the same, first all loose rust should be removed mechanically. Brush or sand blasting.


Then, after removing the rust, it is necessary to neutralize the treated surface with any alkali.
Then we apply an acidic primer or an epoxy primer to a pure metal.

With hidden cavities, everything is much more complicated. Here's what you can see if you cut off the outside of the threshold.


If you do not cut the threshold, the acid will not help. You can stop the rusting process with liquid wax. It is necessary to isolate the metal from the access of oxygen.
This is how I do it.
In addition to acid, everything from
https://novol.com/en
 

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Hello to the forum!

The best to stop rust is spray oil in the cavitys. oil will creep in all corners and prevent coming water and misture to the parts. do the oil-spray every 4-5 years and you will never see any rust.
the problem is, that oil is dripping 2-3 days out of all parts, so park your car on great cardboard.
All products with wax will harden in time and then crack and let water in.

greetings from austria (very salty in winter)
gernot ak zagato^1600
 

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Hi, zagato^1600
Three years have passed, the wax is still sticky. Oil is good, but it should be thick, i.e. transmission. And it has a smell, which in the heat will only increase.
 

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Corrosion oil

Hi!

3 years is for wax no time- it starts to harden in about 8 to 10 years debendig how much sun will dry the wax out.

The oil should be very thin to get in all places and crawl in all seams.
Enclosed a link to a german manufacture of special rust inhibiter oils- have nothing to do with them, but the product is the best i could get in the last 30 years! And it is cheap!!

https://www.meguin-shop.de/Industrieschmierstoffe/Rostschutzoel/meguin-Rostschutz-Spruehoel-ohne-Graphit-20-Liter::488.html

Greetings
Gernot
 

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LPS 3 gets quite good reviews. I'm thinking that first using rust killer treatment, and then LPS 3 over it might work well.
 

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Unfortunately, Meguin oils in Russia are only for engines. But I found analogs. I can also try.

LPS 3 - we have it on sale, but it is based on wax.

:wink2: At me ahead, "struggle" with a rust in 164.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I'm actually going to try a rust converter/inhibitor claimed to be used on oil rig legs. Supposedly a better version of Hammerite's Kurust, it is called Aquasteel and can be found on ebay as well as direct from the manufacturer.

Maybe injecting that and then oil or waxoyl will do a suitable job of protecting the inner surfaces of the sills and car in general? Either way, going to coat the replacement rear subframe with it and see how that goes - at least it is possible to keep an eye on that.

Also planning to coat some rusty steel, no waxoyl on top, and leave it in a bath of salt water indefinitely. Until that begins to rust will feel confident the car is well protected.
 

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My jacking points are good but I took a closer look today at the trailing arm mounts and I don't like what I see. While they aren't ready to fail yet, theres a lot of layers of peeling rust and rot. I'm likely going to need to find a way to either reinforce these spots, or cut them out and replace.

EDIT: just got off the phone with Alfa Auto Clinic and discussed with them, they said they have done before and would be no problem to weld in some reinforcement or repair. I think I am going to have done before I start installing fancy suspension parts.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
My jacking points are good but I took a closer look today at the trailing arm mounts and I don't like what I see. While they aren't ready to fail yet, theres a lot of layers of peeling rust and rot. I'm likely going to need to find a way to either reinforce these spots, or cut them out and replace.

EDIT: just got off the phone with Alfa Auto Clinic and discussed with them, they said they have done before and would be no problem to weld in some reinforcement or repair. I think I am going to have done before I start installing fancy suspension parts.
Great about the repair, just remember that once the new welds are in place they will have no protection against rust from behind, hence the need to inject anti-rust stuff to make the welds last more than a year.
 

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Great about the repair, just remember that once the new welds are in place they will have no protection against rust from behind, hence the need to inject anti-rust stuff to make the welds last more than a year.
Thanks I am interested to see your process here on your car. Any before pictures?
 

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Dealing with the rust issue myself. Noticed some on the right quarter after I removed the bumper for a shock repair (bumper shock). The right side had bubbling and a small hole. Left it a year to long and now the small hole is large and lots of paint swelling. I had to cut out the trunk floor, right side and remove the tow loop. I have almost finished shaping a new piece of metal for the floor out of....don't laugh..... a piece of appliance metal, enameled on both sides and with 90 degree bends that I was able to incorporate for the edges. Rain, work and other issues are slowing me down but I hope to have things fitted shortly and will then rivet into place. I won't weld so close to the tank. The reason I am using appliance metal (front of an appliance) is that it is a slightly heavier gauge than the stock floor, is already enameled and should repel water nicely. The rust started at the floor just over the under-tray on the right side. Seems that the water from the sunroof just didn't drain quickly enough and rust got a hold. It has not crept up over the bumper and not into the seams. Lift out your carpeting and have a close look at the right side of your trunk floor.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hi and thanks for all the responses.

I have all the carpet out of my boot at the moment. The boot/trunk is where condensation from inside the car gets fed to. In theory it vents out through the sides of the rear wings, behind the bumpers. In practice not everything does. With the carpet/trim out, it is possible to see what happens on a daily basis and figure out the best protection for it.

Sill/structural rust wise, have today got the flexible hose ordered to construct a long-reach spray gun. The current idea is to feed in the spray head at one point in each sill (inner and outer each side) and spray with marine-grade rust converter/preventer. Still digging out my snake cam to video how it all looks from the inside.

As usual, my reply may be delayed and apologies for that, but I will post the results when complete them.

All the best and happy motoring :)
 

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Crikey, that’s significant perforation.. there will be more (hidden)

If it were me, and in the UK.. I’d just let it go and buy a late model 166 (V6). Much better car and based on the same ethos as the 164. You have such a wider choice of modern Alfas at the bottom of the depreciation curve in the UK.

I understand the strong emotional connection though, so please don’t take this as a criticism (or offence). I’ve kept a 156 1.9jtd sport wagon in perfect OE mechanical health even though the body was hailed to death years ago.. some things you just can’t let go
 

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And make sure the foam seals around the rear lights are good. I have noticed water dripping in from the left tail light and pooling on the trunk floor, left of shock pathway.
 

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Some more images of the trouble spots near the gas cap and trunk to be aware of.
Removed part of the inner frame support(that's what I call it) to have a better look at what lies underneath. Removed the wheel arch on the gas cap side...a pain as you have to remove the filler neck. I could not for the life of me unclip the vapor line so I cut a slot in the liner instead. Have a close look at what lies under the liner, at the bottom corner of the arch at the front as this is a trouble spot and rust i here often creeps into the seam under the kick-board. I have a loonie (Canadian dollar coin) sized hole in mine and will need to remove plastic panel behind the rear door to explore further.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I think the trunk area is a real source of moisture collection for the 164. Yes, they have air vents on the sides that exit behind the bumpers but they are also the exits for moisture from the cabin area. As big metal boxes condensation on the sides, behind the carpeted areas, can collect and run down. Not just into the sides of the trunk floor but also forward of the wheel arch, towards the top of the rear jacking points and where the bottom of the rear seat belts mount.
Every model of car has its weak points and this seems to be one for the 164. Personally, wouldn't necessarily write the car off because of it. Almost all the rest of the car is probably rust free.
 
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