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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

After having a couple of jacking points welded up, one front one rear, have been trying to coat the welds from behind by pumping/spraying anti-corrosion stuff in - without much success.

For the rear took out the side carpet in the boot and the sound proofing piece of sponge, fitted into the gap at the top front of the rear wheel arch - also inside the boot. Then tried spraying the stuff in and found it tended to escape from the bottom of the rear sill, rear of the rear jacking point.

Tried it again, with the rear of the car jacked up, and still didn't seem to run much further forward. Am I missing something? Is there actually no access into the sill from the boot or is there some more soundproofing material further down that is blocking it?

Seen a great post showing the front end of the sill structure but nothing for the rear. Anyone dug around in there?
 

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I'm pretty sure the jacking point is not accessible from the sill. It is welded onto the outside of what would be a main frame rail in a body on frame structure. Unibodies still have frame rails, they're just integrated into the floor pan.
 

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Not certain if this will help but after I removed the rear-pass side fender liner and fuel neck and peripherals to complete a repair to the trunk floor (the front most section, from the outside as the rot had worked along the seam under the rail in the trunk and took part of the metal where the mud flap would attach to) and i discovered a hole in the front of the arch as well. Pulled the running board partly away (I believe the bottom is riveted to the frame) and I could see into the sill and see the hole at the back end. The previous owner had rust proofing added as the capped holes indicated but without follow up, rust took hold. If you can, pull the liner away from the front of the arch, careful not to crack anything, to see if there is a rust hole behind it. At the very least you will be able to clean up the crud and sand that is likely stuck back there.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Given what I have seen by lifting the rear seat squab, this is exactly the kind of rust damage I'd expect to find. Have been using an endoscope to search things out but delay in putting it in again after injecting rust converter as the winter weather means it has yet to dry - would ruin the camera if did so.
In the meantime, can confirm this area is a rot heaven in the 164 and probably most other Alfas. It is 'watered' not from rain but from water splash from underneath - jusdging by the dryiness of this area in mine after a rainstorm.
 

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Given what I have seen by lifting the rear seat squab, this is exactly the kind of rust damage I'd expect to find. Have been using an endoscope to search things out but delay in putting it in again after injecting rust converter as the winter weather means it has yet to dry - would ruin the camera if did so.
In the meantime, can confirm this area is a rot heaven in the 164 and probably most other Alfas. It is 'watered' not from rain but from water splash from underneath - jusdging by the dryiness of this area in mine after a rainstorm.
Yes, and after removing the plastic gravel guard, I figured that the guard was keeping moisture from draining out and likely ice built up between it and the body, aggravating the situation. Remove the gravel guard (right-rear) and inspect that area to see if there is rust crawling up the seams. This is also a bad area for ALL Mazda cars from what I see (find an RX8 without a rusty behind).
 

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If your car has a sunroof this is where the rear sunroof drain tubes reach the ground. Blocked tubes can encourage water to accumulate at this spot.

There's also the question of just how long these nearly 30 year old steel bodies could be expected to last no matter what one does to eliminate rust.
 

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If your car has a sunroof this is where the rear sunroof drain tubes reach the ground. Blocked tubes can encourage water to accumulate at this spot.

There's also the question of just how long these nearly 30 year old steel bodies could be expected to last no matter what one does to eliminate rust.
True and that reminds me that the right (pass) rear drain tube drains out onto this gravel guard. right at the spot that seems to rust more quickly. From what I have seen, most 164 models rust at the right side (cap side) first. Coincidence? I think not.
Have a great Christmas/Holiday season and New Year to you all.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I'm pretty sure the jacking point is not accessible from the sill. It is welded onto the outside of what would be a main frame rail in a body on frame structure. Unibodies still have frame rails, they're just integrated into the floor pan.
The 164 is box section, not frame rail. The side sill has two box-section halves, inner and outer - both are important. No rails involved.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
damp cure

If your car has a sunroof this is where the rear sunroof drain tubes reach the ground. Blocked tubes can encourage water to accumulate at this spot.

There's also the question of just how long these nearly 30 year old steel bodies could be expected to last no matter what one does to eliminate rust.
From what I have seen, the drain holes are rarely blocked enough to stop drainage. In my 164 the damp is from water drips though the bottom of door cards, after re-adjusting them.

Any other water leak suggestions?
 

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The right side isn't blocked but it does empty onto the guard and I believe that area holds moisture in. if not done, remove it and have a look. It is held on by a few 10mm (I believe) bolts. if these break off, good chance the rust is just underneath them and into the trunk floor.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The right side isn't blocked but it does empty onto the guard and I believe that area holds moisture in. if not done, remove it and have a look. It is held on by a few 10mm (I believe) bolts. if these break off, good chance the rust is just underneath them and into the trunk floor.
In mine I can see the rear sunroof drain pipes emptying through the boot floor sides to the rear of the wheel arch, where-as the rear jacking point and under rear seat rust is ahead of the wheelarch.
 

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Have a look at the drain point from inside. It is behind the arch, right of the reinforcement and right of a seam. Note certain if all years are the same but mine drained out onto the gravel guard (unless the line had been pulled partly up and did not continue through a hole in the guard). Have a look under the guard and see if there is rust at the seam. That seam travels upwards and then the rust migrates to the wheel arch, under the plastics where it is not noticed until you see a bubble at the metal where the arch and plastics intersect. That rust travels up into the gas cap area. I was looking at a parts car, immaculate interior and 4 new tires on telephone rims for around $1200 cdn (chances I could get it for much less) but it was a 91 and apart from the glass and tranny and wheels, not alot of swappable parts (maybe all of the seats?). I pulled back when I noticed rust at the right side, exactly where mentioned (an torn shock boots, missing liner, etc). If I can, I will snap a picture of mine for you.
 

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Have a look at the drain point from inside. It is behind the arch, right of the reinforcement and right of a seam. Note certain if all years are the same but mine drained out onto the gravel guard (unless the line had been pulled partly up and did not continue through a hole in the guard). Have a look under the guard and see if there is rust at the seam. That seam travels upwards and then the rust migrates to the wheel arch, under the plastics where it is not noticed until you see a bubble at the metal where the arch and plastics intersect. That rust travels up into the gas cap area. I was looking at a parts car, immaculate interior and 4 new tires on telephone rims for around $1200 cdn (chances I could get it for much less) but it was a 91 and apart from the glass and tranny and wheels, not alot of swappable parts (maybe all of the seats?). I pulled back when I noticed rust at the right side, exactly where mentioned (an torn shock boots, missing liner, etc). If I can, I will snap a picture of mine for you.
That is literally exactly the only area of rust/rot on my car's body. I was hoping to just replace the whole 1/4 but having a hard time sourcing one.
 

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And if you ignore it, you can kiss the right side of the trunk goodbye. If the rust is in the seam but not rotting through the floor, you may be able to split the seams and treat the metal. There is a good chance the rust has worked under the tow hook and that is bolted and spot welded in place.
With my car, the right corner had been repaired (some bondo, poor brazing the evidence) and the rust moved along a bit more quickly. I did notice some rot last fall (2017) but it wasn't too alarming and I forgot about it until fall of this year. By that point it really had moved along quickly. I caught it before it moved into the rear wheel arch but I do detect some swelling on the inside of the rear arch. I will take an image of the "repaired" area and pass it along. Not beautiful but will likely outlast the rest of the car.
 

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And if you ignore it, you can kiss the right side of the trunk goodbye. If the rust is in the seam but not rotting through the floor, you may be able to split the seams and treat the metal. There is a good chance the rust has worked under the tow hook and that is bolted and spot welded in place.
With my car, the right corner had been repaired (some bondo, poor brazing the evidence) and the rust moved along a bit more quickly. I did notice some rot last fall (2017) but it wasn't too alarming and I forgot about it until fall of this year. By that point it really had moved along quickly. I caught it before it moved into the rear wheel arch but I do detect some swelling on the inside of the rear arch. I will take an image of the "repaired" area and pass it along. Not beautiful but will likely outlast the rest of the car.
There is a lump next to my fuel door I don't know what happened or where its from (or if its a blob of rust under the paint). Under the fuel door there are 2 small rot holes, and then all the way at the bottom of the wheel arch where the fender ends its rotten through. The metal underneath is fine, but the arch bottom is gone. Hence i just want to replace the whole rear quarter. No other rot on the trunk side that i can tell. Also Have a rot hole in the trunk floor but that seems to come directly from the leaky trunk seal.



 

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There is a lump next to my fuel door I don't know what happened or where its from (or if its a blob of rust under the paint). Under the fuel door there are 2 small rot holes, and then all the way at the bottom of the wheel arch where the fender ends its rotten through. The metal underneath is fine, but the arch bottom is gone. Hence i just want to replace the whole rear quarter. No other rot on the trunk side that i can tell. Also Have a rot hole in the trunk floor but that seems to come directly from the leaky trunk seal.



Those are the spots exactly. They are all related. The rust starts at the seam (trunk, over the gravel guard. usually at the fastening points) and travels up the seam and between the inner and outer metal at the arch, up to the gas cap area (I believe there is a welded piece under the quarter at the inlet and rust gets under that metal but I could be wrong). Rust also travels downward to the kick board and starts under the plastic. By the time you see the swell, the rust underneath is larger. If you remove your liner (I cut a slot in mine to make removal easier as some of the hard lines would have to be removed) you may see holes at the trunk-mud flap area and front at the arch-kickboard area. These terms may not be exactly correct but you get the point. I had a look at a pristine looking 164 in Boston but when I noticed the swell starting to creep up from the plastic kickboard, I backed off. Owner had not noticed it and he was pretty meticulous. I will try to attach some images later today.
 

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Cool thanks, I think documenting this here can help everyone. I just hope this is something worth the time/work to fix. Its really the worst part of my car, everything else is much cleaner and more solid.
 

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These images show the repair I have made to the trunk and inner wheel well area that pose so many problems on this model. The repairs are not pretty and they are not welded or brazed (a bit nervous about doing that so near the tank) so I cleaned up as much rust as possible, treated any spots with rust killer and waited a week to make sure none of the surface rust on the treated sections returned (left the bumper off and all areas exposed for a week in rainy and sunny weather alternately). Treated all areas with a sealer, oversized all patches and riveted everything in place. Used extra strong waterproof adhesive between all panels and along all treated seams and added rivets to all areas. Plenty strong (stronger than pitted panels) but a proper brazing would have likely been better. I could not find the right gauge of sheet metal so I used enameled panels from my defunct washer (yes, washing machine part.....lots of jokes I expect) as they were slightly thicker gauge and the enamel will last longer than plain steel panels anyway regardless of how you treat them. Drilled new drain hole for the sunroof line and access points for the few connectors. Covered all seams in and out and all rivet heads with adhesive. There were 5-6 small holes in the trunk and those were all mounting points for the gravel shield and a few mysterious ones. Scraped all of the rust (swelling under the black rubber coating) and treated those. I will add new mounting points for the gravel shield BUT I will drill drain holes in the guard as well. The image of the guard shows that there are no drain holes.
The image of the rear well shows how far up I added the metal (oversized the seam by about an inch). The image of the underside shows the size of the panel I had to fashion. The section that curves upward is about 1.5 inches oversized as I wanted to be sure I was adding rivets through sound metal. The tow hoop is gone and I will fashion a new one. That hoop and frame were spot welded in place and 2 stock bolts run through from the inside of the trunk. Once I deal with the hole in front of the well and any rust under the plastics I will cover everything with black rocker guard and attach the gravel shield. Yearly inspections will be in order.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Looked in the boot of mine today and managed to dig out this hole to the real of the RH wheelarch. As you can see, the hole is nothing to do with the sunroof drainpipe but has occured before it.

What I found was mud caked between the breaking metal and the plastic wheelarch liner, which runs closer to the metalwork as it goes towards the bottom - making it a perfect trap of mud and other nasties. Imagine it is the same issue with the front of the rear wheelarch too - explaining the tendancy for 164s to rot there too.

Also noticed the aged underseal had reached that partial 'peel off' stage, where it lifts slightly from the metalwork - just enough to draw up and trap water underneath it. No longer protecting the car against rust it is actually accelerating it.
I plastered the hole in rust converter and, until I can get underneath to deal with it properly after the winter, will simply try to avoid draining in the wet until then. Always buses, bikes and feet....

Also drilled holes above front and rear jacking points, from inside the car, to poke in an endescope and squirt in rust converter there too. Will post tomorrow as really tired now.

Belated Happy New Year, everyone.

All the best,

Richard
 

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Yes, I had rust in the same areas but that area has a number of seams nearby. One to the right, where the outer skin is and along the front of the floor. the area under the rib (onto which the alarm is bolted), rusts as a result of rust starting under the tow hook (my opinion). This image shows what my trunk floor, at the same area, looked after cleaning. The other shows the underside with the tow hook removed.
 

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