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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Our 164S has always had a low pedal action, not disengaging unless almost clear to the floor. Recently it started getting worse, and now the clutch will not release at all. The previous owner borrowed the manual back a few years ago and seems to have some excuse or another whenever I've asked about it, so I'm not too hopeful about seeing it soon. What I need is some sort of walk-through, and maybe a diagram if anyone has one he could scan and send. nashwillnineonetwo(numbers)atearthlinkdotnet

The reservoir is full. A fairly knowledgeable man who'd come by to look at my Milano yesterday got down and reached under the dash, and said it felt like some connection was either gone or slipping, but he couldn't get into a position to see anything.

I may well have posted something about this before – I am sorta getting to the point where I forget stuff like that – so I'll go look. Thanks!
 

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Sounds like you need to be sure you have good master cylinder and slave cylinder that full with fluid and are free of air. How much free play do you have in clutch pedal before it feels like you have a force being applied when you push down on clutch pedal?

It should start to have resistance to push within a inch or so from full up position.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
It's never had that much to work with – always been a lot lower than the Milano pedal.

I need to get a road map to the cylinders, as they're tucked away out of sight somewhere. Damsilly way to build a car, I say, but there it is.
 

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2015 Chevy (Holden) SS, 1989 Milano (Shankle Sport), 1991 164S
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The slave cylinder is easy to locate, as it is right there on top of the clutch bell housing, with a hose going to it. Try bleeding that first. The cylinder might be bad, with leaking seals.

It could be that the fluid might be really old and have particles in it, interfering with the seal, or the seal itself might be worn out, or moisture might have condensed in the fluid and caused corrosion in the slave cylinder bore. Check for fluid leaks around the cylinder area.

New slave cylinders are cheap and easy to replace. I had to replace the one on my LS last Spring. Does happen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Del - "Easy" is a relative term when we're talking about engine bays more packed than a refugee ship, but I did find it. Now, while we're at it, where's the master cylinder, and what all has to come off to get to it? I don't see how I can go about bleeding either cylinder without some stroke left in the pedal …
 

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2015 Chevy (Holden) SS, 1989 Milano (Shankle Sport), 1991 164S
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"engine bays more packed than a refugee ship"

Well, at least it's the less cluttered part of the engine bay, isn't it?

The master cylinder is under the dash above your feet; however, you can bleed the slave cylinder without much slave actuation, because when you pump the petal, you will develop a little pressure, and that will be enough to move the fluid.

First, though, you can also temporarily bleed the slave cylinder at least part way to get enough pedal by just opening the little fluid **** on the cylinder itself. Gravity will allow fluid to flow down from the reservoir into the cylinder if the **** is open. Might not get rid of ALL the air, if that is the problem, but will be enough to drive the car. Did this with my LS to get it going again after the slave seal got junk caught in it and let fluid drain onto the pavement overnight.

Mind you, watch the fluid level in the reservoir to make sure it doesn't empty. Have some brake fluid available to refill. When you get this sorted out, ie, determine that it may be the slave cylinder acting up, then after you have fixed the problem (and I'm willing to bet that it is probably the slave, which it would be best to just replace it because if it is the original, it's OLD), you can buy good fluid such as ATE 200 high temp (the cars need a high temp fluid such as that, esp in hot stop and go traffic), and then bleed the system with fresh good fluid.

Obviously, if the above doesn't fix it, then you will then have to think about the master cylinder. Not easy to replace that, but it can be done. I suggest an Alfa type shop for that work if you are not adept at working on cars, lol. Look at the list of BB recommended Alfa mechanics in your area for help with that.
 

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Del, I'm assuming the censored word in your post could be changed to bleeder. I'm actually not trying to crack jokes for once. I'm not sure if he's getting the whole description there.
 

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2015 Chevy (Holden) SS, 1989 Milano (Shankle Sport), 1991 164S
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Yeah, it is meant to be bleeder. Instead, I used the word "c**k" as that is also what it is in actual technical terms, well, really petcock (it's what I get for being an engineer, lol). A petcock is a tap for changing fluid pressure, volume, or flow.

I hate these word police, and the people changing a perfectly good term. Remember the expression "he's a gay blade"? Used to mean that he was a jolly fellow, etc. Now... something different in many people's minds.

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't know they had done that dastardly deed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Okay, I was looking at this earlier, and seeing no obvious ****s (my interpretation – I know what you're saying!). It just looks like a tube running into a cylinder enclosed in steel, with no obvious turn-roosters* (how's that?) to fiddle with. But I will get closer and messier with it tomorrow. And thanks a million!

*Boy-chickens? Non-hens? Petclucks?
 

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I have no problems being a gay blade with a petcock. Bled the system first then figger out where ur. Ciao, chris
 

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Does the pedal go all the way to the floor and not return to the rest position?
I've had a couple of 164s with the clutch taking hold very near the floor. No amount of bleeding would help. I like the clutch to take hold up higher on the stroke and accomplished it by increasing the step on the flywheel when I changed the clutch.

However, if your clutch was releasing and isn't now you have another issue.

You could try bleeding the system. Do a search of Steve's Maintenance notes to find out how to do it. Also, maybe you aren't sufficient getting fluid to the slave cylinder when you pump the pedal. That may indicate a problem with the master cylinder.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
"The master cylinder is under the dash above your feet" … and here I thought the underfloor cylinders on the old 105s were as bad as it could get!

Okay, I'm going to try opening the "rooster" on the slave cylinder (IF I can find it!), but the fact that the clutch pedal can be pushed over center and stay there suggests to me that the car just needs to be flat-bedded to Alfa Italia for some professional attention. This will be necessary not because I'm incapable of doing the work, but because I am 'way too old and fat and creaky to climb around under dashboards anymore.
 

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" but the fact that the clutch pedal can be pushed over center and stay there suggests to me that the car just needs to be flat-bedded to Alfa Italia for some professional attention"

All is not lost yet. That's exactly what the pedal did finally in our LS. You have to pull the pedal back up again with your toe. Once we refilled the reservoir and bled the slave cylinder, the pedal worked enough to be able to drive the car.

It was the slave cylinder leaking fluid.

To better see where things are, I suggest you peruse this site:

FIAT ePER :: The FIAT Forum

This site is essential for owners to see what parts are in the car, and how they go together. Pick the SX setting (meaning left hand drive).

Look for the clutch section in the 91-93 164 section. You will see pictures of the slave cylinder, showing where components are (and the "petcock" bleeder at the end of the cylinder.

I would also suggest that you get a copy of the workshop manual, either paper, or cd, so that you can become familiar with your car. To successfully own one of these cars, you should try to be accustomed to fiddling with the mechanicals. They are fun to drive, but old, and many components tend to show their age. Alas, a few owners lament the work (and money) required to restore a perhaps neglected older 164, thus let things go, not doing the required maintenance.

Restored, however, the car can be a joy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Del, the site portal says "Requires Internet Explorer", which stopped supporting the Mac OS several years ago. And my box is too old to run the latest versions of anything!

Two responses to your suggestions:

1. I did have a manual, but it's been in the previous owner's hands for years, and while he won't admit it I suspect he's lost it. I do think I'm going to have to get the CarDisk after all.

2. The fluid reservoir is topped up. If I could see up into where the MC is I might be able to ascertain whether the linkage is even connected; the man who was feeling around in there said it kinda felt like it wasn't. But my bod won't fit through there far enough. Sounds like flashlight-and-mirror time …
 

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Oh, you are using of of "those". Well, that's a problem then, altho isn't there a windows emulator on the OS? Or, maybe I'm wrong, though. Don't know that much about that stuff. Print out the appropriate pages.

That site though is really a great source of information to see what you are looking at. Suggest you maybe go to a library or visit a friend to access it on a regular computer.

Pity about the manual. Maybe I (except our copier is down right) now or others can email you the appropriate pages from it, if you are interested.

If the reservoir is full, still doesn't mean the slave is not at fault, but then also could be the master. Go ahead and check the linkage, although I kind of doubt it is the problem seeing as how the problem slowly got worse (is that correct?) but who knows. When mechanical linkage like this fails, it's either working, or it suddenly isn't.

Go ahead and try letting the slave "bleed" for a while, watching the level in the reservoir, and see it that will make a difference in the pedal action. If it doesn't, then i guess at this point, sounds like you will have to visit your local mechanic, since it sounds like you are not enthusiastic about changing the slave with a new one. It still could be a problem with the master, but since the slave is most likely OLD, I would change it, it's not expensive, nor difficult.

Also, if you have the mechanic look at it, it is recommended that the clutch dashpot (he will know what it is) be removed for better clutch action when it does work, lol. Almost all have done this.
 

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A few months ago I did a write up here on clutch hydraulics replacement. On the home 164 page, it's maybe 6 or 7 back that has some pretty good pictures of how this all works. Also around the same time I snapped some pics of the slave and the master and did 2 separate threads. Have a look. I'd link them here but have no clue how to do this. Ciao, chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I don't know for sure, Chris, but I'd guess you could post a URL. That usually works. Why don't you try that? Might help to solidify that hold on reality – just guessing, of course.
 

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