Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 101 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
My winter engine build project is starting soon. So far I picked up a decent 93' 164 3.0 with S cams and a mild port job from a fellow BB'er. It was already in a Milano so it has the oil pan. Here is what the engine does NOT have. Oil pump system, intake system, front cover around the crank shaft, harmonic balancer, flywheel, fuel rail and injectors or a dizzy system. I don't know what will fit or what fits what. This is where and why I need your input. I do have two 2.5's in my garage. Will anything off of them work? As far as dizzy stuff goes. Thats ok because I plan on going with SDS distributorless EM-5 F. Unless you can convince me of why I should use GoTech or another brand. So if anyone has parts that they know I need please tell me now.

So far, my car has full RSRacing suspension (thanks to Bill Sims) full RSRacing Watts linkage, 30mm front bar, RSR ARB drop links, RSR De Dion Bushing, RSR 26mm rear adjustable sway bar, Caster ball joint set up, poly bushings in the front suspension and a Verde power steering rack. I just ordered my AutoPower Weld in Roll Cage, I already have aluminum rims with Toyo R1R rubbers. I'm also ordering the Painless wiring harness after I figure out how many circuits I might need. Body parts, lexon plexyglass, interior choices will come at a later date. Mechanical first, looks later is my moto for today.

Hopefully you can see the direction I am going with my car. This is why I need some quality input with my engine. I plan on tearing it down, bringing it into a quality/race machine shop and having it gone through. Its gonna be a very seldom weekend racer, once or twice a week street terrorizing machine. I don't quite have the funds that Junglejustice's clients have, but I don't want to be a cheap *** either.

MY GOAL: Possibly make it legal for racing but unsure about that, why? Because I don't know how. If not, make it dam close. I want to have a fun car with a powerful but streetable engine. I'd like to be able to drive it anywhere, for the most part. I want people to say "nice car". I love interesting cars, rare cars, unique cars, cars that are different. Horsepower, yeah i would like four hundred horsepower but that ain't gonna happen realistically. For now its gonna be between two and three hundred horsepower. If i ever want real horsepower/torque, I will have someone build me a motor. But for now, I want a fun, kickass, cool sounding, wow factor car.

INTAKE: Do i need to get a 164 setup and relocate the butterfly to the front or side? Or do I need to get a 3.0 Milano intake and with that said, is the 2.5 the same setup? Cosmetically I prefer the looks of the 164 intake. Help is definitely need in this department.

INJECTORS AND FUEL RAIL: I don't have a clue, what do I need and why?

HEADS: I already have a mild port job, already has high rev/heavy duty springs, good valves. Do i need to have the area behind the seats ground to 80 degrees or something for better flow? I'm sure i am saying it wrong but something like that. I know i have the good rockers, at least i think i do. What do i need to do for head prep. Oh, and please don't steer me toward a 3k head job.

CAMS: It came with S cams. I hear they are good for a whopping 5hp. Is that all i need? Do I need GTA cams or some sperry 10.5mm lift cams or so? If i am doing this stuff, shouldn't I invest in adjustable sprockets?

BLOCK WORK: Whats the minimum I should be doing? Do I insult the engine rebuilders intelligence and ask him if he knows about these blocks, meaning what it takes to not make the main bearings "pinch" the crankshaft durring assembly and torque plate vs no torque plate, bla bla bla problems that arise from not understanding?

INTERNAL PART BALANCING: Its necessary right? crankshaft with the flywheel and harmonic balancer installed? Piston,rods, pins weighed? all that stuff? I was told that my crank was micro polished so should I have the engine guy check it?

PISTONS AND RINGS: The engine is a 93 3.0 are the pistons good enough or is there something better that I might want to consider? keep the compression under 11:1 right being we have 93 octane here. Realistically I am not going to go buy racing gas everytime i want to go for a spin. As far as the rings. any particular kind, My gut tells me to see if total seal has them. Or do you know of a ring that is more proper for these engines?

MACHINING: Should I have the heads and Block machined down to a particular Ra for proper gasket sealing?

OIL PUMP: Here is where I am at a total loss. Here is what I think I know. Something about putting in a dizzy plug. Something about can't use the 164 pump in a Milano oil pan, something about can't remove the dizzy because the gear drives the shaft that spins the pump, something about remove dizzy and get a thrust washer because of something because now you can't drive the pump and/or the shaft will fall out upwards. Please help! and make is as less complicated as you can. If I knew what i was doing, I'd just put a dry sump in this thing from Pegasus racing. But thats not gonna happen.

GASKETS: I hate it when someone says "Ya, the factory ones are plenty good" and you find out they really weren't that good. So do i need to buy quality gaskets from a few vendors? like maybe Felpro for the head gaskets and whoever for the rest and someone else for the oil seals? Anyone!

BEARINGS: factory? clevite? Something from Europe? bubblegum, Something from Africa?

EXHAUST: I have no exhaust manifolds except for the ones from my 2.5 So its probably gonna have to be headers. Anyone have any used ones for sale? Any particular ones I should stay away from?

TIMING BELT: OEM, gates, gatorback, this is where quality counts. I will be using a mechanical belt tensioner, I will NOT go hydraulic.

HARMONIC BALANCER: Hmmm. Electronically challenged here so bear with me. If i go SDS ignition. I think I need to drill my balancer and install three magnets. Sounds challenging even though i have a drill press. But doesn't the 164 already have a trigger wheel on the back side that i can use? I know things are more stable if i can make my mounting system not have to stick out 4" from the block. I know you racers know what to do so please help.

BELLHOUSING AND FLYWHEEL: Do i need a specific bellhousing and/or flywheel? I only have 2.5 stuff. I read something about a 5mm spacer if you use the 2.5 flywheel cuz it will scrape or click against the block or something to this effect.

STARTER: Does someone make a high torque? or is that totally unnecessary unless i was trying to save weight. Or is the 2.5 and 3.0 starters the same, based on the correct flywheel i need.

FRONT COVER: I don't have a front cover. The part that goes around the front of the crankshaft. So I don't have anything to compare too. Are they all the same?

Its gonna be a fun engine building winter (in my house) I sure hope my engine shop enjoys this as much as I am going too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,090 Posts
Answers to your questions are out there. Kevin (Kredden), Nizam, I, and others have done conversions along these lines. I think Kevin documented it on his own site, I documented every step I went through here on the BB (in the Roxanne build thread), Nizam weighed in in some of these threads.
Jes
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
148 Posts
Jeff if you want the extra 164 intake stuff and fuel rails they are yours. Cool that you are going with the sds! Ill lend you my modified 164 intake so you can make a copy or I can show you something crazy I got in the works.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I just ordered the Book. Looks like its full of great advice.

Mike, I'll take anything you are willing to part with. Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I have free time this weekend. If that works with your halloween schedule
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,679 Posts
Some of the stuff in the book is contradicted by Richard Jemison - particularly with respect to intake runners - so take it with a pinch of salt. Richard successfully raced Alfa V6's and he has influenced many more successful engines.

My understanding is that the 2.5 plenum is the same as the 3.0.

Regarding flywheels, some late Milano 2.5 flywheels will work with a 164 but GTV6 flywheels are not suitable. Whichever you use, consider getting it lightened and balanced - they are much too heavy.

Richard's cams are in many successful engines and he has many profiles to suit all applications.

There are quite a few people on the board with experience of your conversion and they have posted. Spend a little time searching.

I am picking up a 164S motor tomorrow that was converted to GTV6 by Giuseppe Lore.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I can't be the only one but when i try search, i usually can't find anything at all or very little. I use keywords like 164, 3.0, engine swap, milano, milano engine swap, 3.0 into a milano. etc etc and I have read every post for the past few years and just can't seem to re-find what i know is out there.

alfaparticle... the book will be a good reference point. some stuff i would do. some stuff i wouldn't do. but mostly its gonna be like, oh yeah i forgot about that thing. reference book

Slyalfa I'm looking at it now. Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,736 Posts
Thats ok because I plan on going with SDS distributorless EM-5 F. Unless you can convince me of why I should use GoTech or another brand. So if anyone has parts that they know I need please tell me now.
To help save room, mess and having to fork out for decent HT leads, look at going coil on plug ignition. I'm hopefully getting some info on (mainly just need the length of the coils) Yamaha R6 coils as these are readily available and so are the plugs and pins for the wiring.
Others have used VW coils, but getting the plugs and pins could be a challenge.
Consider using a 6 channel ignition module even if you are 'just' going waste spark. Heat build up in the engine bay as well as dwell times set to get the most from the coils could overheat/kill a single channel trying to drive 2 coils when using the car on the track.
Also make sure that what ever ignition module you use is well attached to the body and uses heat sink grease to help it dump heat into the body.

HARMONIC BALANCER: Hmmm. Electronically challenged here so bear with me. If i go SDS ignition. I think I need to drill my balancer and install three magnets. Sounds challenging even though i have a drill press. But doesn't the 164 already have a trigger wheel on the back side that i can use? I know things are more stable if i can make my mounting system not have to stick out 4" from the block. I know you racers know what to do so please help.
The 164 harmonic balancer uses the Motronic 60-2 trigger wheel. Find out if the SDS can be configured with the 60-2 trigger wheel.
If you have to drill for magnets, look at having it done by someone with a rotary table and a milling machine for accuracy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,984 Posts
I would recommend the 60-2 over the sparse mag set up. There is a fair amount of speed up and slow down in between the magnets that will give spark scatter. if you lighten things it will get worse. The 60-2 will give a lot more points to keep the ecu synced up as the crank slows right around spark time and then speeds up a bit after the spark.
as well as it is a clean install with OEM reliability.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I sent an email to SDS asking if their system can support the 60-2 trigger wheel and COPS. Hopefully they will get back to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
148 Posts
I've got a set of VW 1.8t COPs that i'll be switching to this winter. Its one of the few sets that work with SDS. I don't think that SDS does a 60-2 wheel. Drilling the crank pulley for the SDS magnets is not hard to do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
I also would like to put the 164 motor from my £300 164 into my 75 3.0, however one thing I have never read in my 15yrs of 75 ownership is if the 164 (1990) flywheel will fit into the 75. Is it possible to save all the balancing issues, or will it just not fit?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,984 Posts
I did fear a balancing issue when I did mine so I used the old 75 crank, rods, flywheel and front pulley.
but I had a 3.0L to start with. now I am thinking the balancing is only so so from the factory anyways. And now info to go have it balanced is out. I would just take it and have it balanced ether way.
 
1 - 20 of 101 Posts
Top