1600cc Engine Value
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Value?
? What did it come out of? What is the condition of major components (head, block, pan, crank.)? What is the condition of the removable accesories, (Webers, manifold, linkage, starter, generator, water pump.) And finally, what is the known extent of the damage or wear?
Given all this, a potential buyer can decide if it is a viable candidate for a rebuild for particular collector, street or race application, or if it is just parts, or worse, junk.
I looked for years for a paticular 1600 block, only to find a perfect example in a neighboring state at a VERY low price. valuable JUNK!
Gordon Raymond
That's a hard one. It depends on a lot of factors. How complete is it
? What did it come out of? What is the condition of major components (head, block, pan, crank.)? What is the condition of the removable accesories, (Webers, manifold, linkage, starter, generator, water pump.) And finally, what is the known extent of the damage or wear?Given all this, a potential buyer can decide if it is a viable candidate for a rebuild for particular collector, street or race application, or if it is just parts, or worse, junk
.I looked for years for a paticular 1600 block, only to find a perfect example in a neighboring state at a VERY low price. valuable JUNK
!Gordon Raymond
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Complete 1600 engine value.
Hi Luigi,
What car did it come out of? Whats the Sn prefix stamped on the block? Whats the number on the Webers? Either that information, or photos would help establish value. With what you have told us thus far, it's a guess, $200 to who knows?
Gordon Raymond
Hi Luigi,
What car did it come out of? Whats the Sn prefix stamped on the block? Whats the number on the Webers? Either that information, or photos would help establish value. With what you have told us thus far, it's a guess, $200 to who knows?
Gordon Raymond
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To underscore what Gordon is saying: I would guess that a 1600 from a 101 chassis Giulia Veloce with correct oil pan, intake and carbs is probably worth twice as much as a batwing sump 1600 from a 66-67 105 car with the corresponding pieces. If you're just talking about a long block from a 105 1600 with no manifolds but a usable head, crank and block, I'd say $300-$500, local pickup. I could be a bit off as these parts are only getting scarcer.
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The engine is from a 67 gtv. I don't have any pictures. It does not have webers, intake, or exhaust manifold. Everything else is there. The reason I am asking because they seem to be scarce, at least here in Canada.
Thanks for the input guys.
Luigi
Thanks for the input guys.
Luigi
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Luigi,
There is a rebuilt one like yours on E-Bay. It is in Hawaii for $700. Hope this helps.
Gordon Raymond
There is a rebuilt one like yours on E-Bay. It is in Hawaii for $700. Hope this helps.
Gordon Raymond
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I was told by an Alfa mechanic the other day that 1600 blocks are weak and the bores are often worn when you take the liners out. New liners are hard to find and expensive (I was quoted A$1400), and fitting 1750s requires accurate machining. The gasket kits are also specific to those engines. I have been looking at a car with a 1600 that has a damaged cylinder and broken piston, but recon head, and have been weighing up the costs. The consensus seems to be that it is cheaper to fit a second hand 2 litre and gearbox.
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No he wasn't trying to sell me something. He is a friend and was just speaking from his experience. He thought it would be more cost effective to fit a 2 litre, complete with gearbox. I have only got one quote on the 1600 sleeves so far. One supplier doesn't have them but sells 1750 kits for half the price. I haven't tried interstate yet, but it is unlikely I would find them cheaper there. This particular engine is complete but in pieces and the head has been fully reconditioned and comes with new gaskets and seals. I don't know how much it would cost to machine the block to fit 1750 sleeves.
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Weak?
As to the cost of rebuilds at todays prices, as opposed to the cost of a more common 2L, non rebuilt drop in, I would guess it's a toss up. If the car was equipted with a 1600 to begin with, and particularly if the 1600 matches the car, or if the car may have any future collectable value, a 2L would not be my first choice. On the other hand, as a less costly alternative, or for anyone without the knowledge, ability, or parts availability to complete a comprehensive 1600 rebuild, the 2L is a viable alternative. All just my opinion.Gordon Raymond
Having both built and raced 1600's in all flavors including GTA's over the years, I can assure anyone reading this thread they are not "weak".
As to the cost of rebuilds at todays prices, as opposed to the cost of a more common 2L, non rebuilt drop in, I would guess it's a toss up. If the car was equipted with a 1600 to begin with, and particularly if the 1600 matches the car, or if the car may have any future collectable value, a 2L would not be my first choice. On the other hand, as a less costly alternative, or for anyone without the knowledge, ability, or parts availability to complete a comprehensive 1600 rebuild, the 2L is a viable alternative. All just my opinion.
Gordon Raymond
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The engine is definitely the original so there is indeed a good argument for keeping it. Your point of view is apreciated and I will reassess the options and track down more sources of sleeve kits if I can. I am weighing up whether the car is worth the expense because it has rust issues.Having both built and raced 1600's in all flavors including GTA's over the years, I can assure anyone reading this thread they are not "weak".
As to the cost of rebuilds at todays prices, as opposed to the cost of a more common 2L, non rebuilt drop in, I would guess it's a toss up. If the car was equipted with a 1600 to begin with, and particularly if the 1600 matches the car, or if the car may have any future collectable value, a 2L would not be my first choice. On the other hand, as a less costly alternative, or for anyone without the knowledge, ability, or parts availability to complete a comprehensive 1600 rebuild, the 2L is a viable alternative. All just my opinion.
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Try Christian Ondrak, Ok parts in Germany. Or as an easy alternative, get a set of custom 1 mm oversize forged JE pistons from Paul Spruell Motorsports here in the U.S. @ 800-552-ALFA, cut your liners 1mm to match Paul's specifications, and rebuild.
As the value of these cars is increasing, it becomes more important to deal with the rust issues.
Gordon Raymond
You might try contacting LA SLEEVE (lasleeve.com). I haven't dealt with them in quite awhile, but they used to catalogue Alfa sleeves. Their on-line information allows you to match up your dimensions with their sleeve production.
Putting a 1750 P/L kit in a 1600 block makes for a very nice motor. One of the nicest sounding Alfa race motors I ever heard was at Monterey a number of years ago. A very fast GTA had a bit "harder" sound than most I'd heard. A discrete inquiry confirmed that it was running w/ 1750 liners and pistons. Your 1600 block would have to be machined to accept the 1750 kit, however a good race-oriented machine shop should be able to do the job with little trouble.
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The Easy Solution
It all depends on the pistons used. Some years ago, when GTA engines were not as valuable as today, I ran a set of 80 mm 2 ring pistons in my GTA engine with 11 to 1 compression. The advantage was a considerable amount of power. The disadvantages were several. Pistons had no expansion control inserts, lots of piston slap and oil pumping until things warmed up. Liners (1600 bored to 80 mm) were paper thin at the flange into the block. I feared what would happen if one cracked. Race fuel required. Today I use JE 79mm pistons available from Paul Spruell, with 10.5 to 1. Liners have more meat at the flange. Modern piston design using 3 rings including gapless. No slap, no oil pumping, no fears durring warm up, and I can use pump gas (93 RON). A much better solution. The machine work on 1750 liners and the block is unnecessary with this technique, allowing no costly and irreversable block alterations. The potential costs of an 80mm bore is outweighed (1750 liners + machine work or 1600 real t h i n eekliners both + pistons) by the 79mm JE's and only boring stock 1600 liners 1
mm. Just my opinion.Gordon Raymond
It all depends on the pistons used. Some years ago, when GTA engines were not as valuable as today, I ran a set of 80 mm 2 ring pistons in my GTA engine with 11 to 1 compression. The advantage was a considerable amount of power
. The disadvantages were several. Pistons had no expansion control inserts, lots of piston slap and oil pumping until things warmed up. Liners (1600 bored to 80 mm) were paper thin at the flange into the block. I feared what would happen if one cracked. Race fuel required. Today I use JE 79mm pistons available from Paul Spruell, with 10.5 to 1. Liners have more meat at the flange. Modern piston design using 3 rings including gapless. No slap, no oil pumping, no fears durring warm up, and I can use pump gas (93 RON). A much better solution. The machine work on 1750 liners and the block is unnecessary with this technique, allowing no costly and irreversable block alterations. The potential costs of an 80mm bore is outweighed (1750 liners + machine work or 1600 real t h i n eekliners both + pistons) by the 79mm JE's and only boring stock 1600 liners 1 mm. Just my opinion.
Gordon Raymond[/QUOTE]The machine work on 1750 liners and the block is unnecessary with this technique, allowing no costly and irreversable block alterations
Gordon, it's always beneficial to have the opinion/experience of someone who's actually _done_ the job.
I was largely quoting a long ago conversatiion with John Shankle who was an enthusiast for the 1600/1750 P/L conversion. Of course, he had a machine shop at this disposal . . .An interesting factoid. Back in the day when I talked to them, LA Sleeve actually catalogued Alfa liners whose O.D. was thicker than stock. I was surprised last night to find that they're still in business. Website, 800 number and everything. Kinda made me nostalgic.
Factoid 2. The GTA motor I mentioned was either built by Dave Vegher or Mike Sperry (this was a long time ago) and was in a car owned by Henry Manny's son. Are you familiar with this car? Although I dimly remember the car (it was white) , I'll always remember the sound.
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Liners
Hi Jim,
Again this is opinion, but I have always preferred used, matched liners. They have many heat up / cool down cycles on them and once lightly bored and honed, seem to break in faster and hold up better than new. I've been told it is because they are "more stable on a molecular leval and less likely to change shape..." This may be just so much bull, but there are a large number of outfits that specialize in "freezing" race engine parts, tools, and gun barrels in liquid nitrogen to make them "tougher". Years ago Ron Neal had a Sunnen Hone machine at Prototype Engineering, and used to hone, rather than bore cylinders on race engines, both Alfa and Chevy V8's. He felt a boring bar could displace metal as it removed same, while the hone only removed material.
With 1750 liners, they need to be shortened, from top to the flange. I also do not know if the sides have to be cut to get them to fit in the available space. Finally the block itself needs to be opened up to receive the flanges IF they remain stock thickness. Seems like a lot could go wrong here!
I will look up LA sleeve and see how they do it! Maybe a place for Alfa owners world wide to get rid of used liners, or exchange for others!
I'm not sure exactly why, but ALL GTA engines sound different than the same engine as a single plug. Perhaps wishful hearing?
Gordon Raymond
Hi Jim,
Again this is opinion, but I have always preferred used, matched liners. They have many heat up / cool down cycles on them and once lightly bored and honed, seem to break in faster and hold up better than new. I've been told it is because they are "more stable on a molecular leval and less likely to change shape..." This may be just so much bull, but there are a large number of outfits that specialize in "freezing" race engine parts, tools, and gun barrels in liquid nitrogen to make them "tougher". Years ago Ron Neal had a Sunnen Hone machine at Prototype Engineering, and used to hone, rather than bore cylinders on race engines, both Alfa and Chevy V8's. He felt a boring bar could displace metal as it removed same, while the hone only removed material
.With 1750 liners, they need to be shortened, from top to the flange. I also do not know if the sides have to be cut to get them to fit in the available space. Finally the block itself needs to be opened up to receive the flanges IF they remain stock thickness. Seems like a lot could go wrong here!
I will look up LA sleeve and see how they do it! Maybe a place for Alfa owners world wide to get rid of used liners, or exchange for others!
I'm not sure exactly why, but ALL GTA engines sound different than the same engine as a single plug. Perhaps wishful hearing?
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