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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys,

Need to ask which cloisonne badge is actually correct for my 101 1600 late 1962 Spider as well as in which material it is supposed to be fabricated in?

I think there has once been a discussion on this subject here but it seems the search function sugs just as much as it did before the website update, can´t find it.....

I´ve no idea if the one that currently sits on my car is actually correct or not, see the attached pic. Also should there be dash between Alfa - Romeo, Milano script or not, diameter and material?

Thanks,
Dennis
 

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A photo of the original grill badge from Ar390377, a 65 Giulia. Plastic with Milano at the bottom. I believe the 750's had Cloisonne badges and the 101s plastic, but I have no documentation for that. The cloisonne looks so much better, but should have Milano at the
IMG_0102 (1).jpg
bottom.
 

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The "dashes" represent knots that have some significance in Lombardy, but I'll have to look that up. The patterned aluminum around the badge represents a laurel wreath to celebrate the 1925 Grand Prix championship. Milano was dropped when the Alfa Sud plant opened in the 70's (?). The badge was modernized with little respect for the history contained in the original design, in my opinion. The Cross of St. Ambrose and the Biscione represent the founding families of Milan.
 

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My late ‘61 101 Spider had a pair of the plastic Milano badges. They may be correct, but the cloisonnés look like beautiful jewels on a polished new grill and trunk lock. Not sure if a concours judge would ding you for them though. Maybe extra points for the correct plastic versions? Those in-the-know will chime in...

I have seen the use of cloisonnés mentioned in the Alfa Owner monthly auction descriptions of 101 cars wearing the “incorrect badging”, so it seems to be an occasional purist observation. If you’re in to picking nits or not, I think they are a sexy upgrade Alfa should have stuck with on the 101s, even if plastic didn’t pit or corrode. The plastic ones didn’t hold up well at all either.

Would you buy your wife plastic pearls thinking she wouldn’t notice?
Don’t answer that if you’re trying to pay for new Cinturatos.
 

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My September 1961 Spider came with two cloisonne badges. They are probably original as the silver on the wreath was long gone revealing the brass underneath.

This piqued my interest, so I went back to the manuals.

Both my Giulietta 101 manual (publication No 776, 1960) and my Giulia 101 1600 (no date) manual show the same part no for the front badges 101.00.59.052.00 (Badge, radiator grille) for all 101 Gulietta models: Berlina, Sprint, Spider, SS and SZ and for 101 Giulia 1600 Sprint, Spider.

So it is fair to assume that all models (even the Giulia 1600's ) were intended to have cloisonne badges on the front ... but of course we just don't know what Luigi in the factory was given to put on the later cars ...

On the Spider there are two badges and they should be different part numbers to the front which have solid 'pegs' while the rear badge has threaded 'pegs'.

According to my manuals, the badges for the rear of the Spider are different part nos between the Giulietta and Giulia models: the101 Giulietta manual has 2800.45000 (Badge, luggage comparement lock) and the 101 Giulia 1600 manual has 101.03.59.064.00 (Badge on luggage comparement lock).

However neither manual shows/lists the clips required to fit a solid peg badge, so it must be assumed that both these part nos refer to badges with threaded pegs. Personally, I have never seen a plastic badge with threaded pegs - has anyone else? If not, it is again fair to assume that both these part nos refer to threaded cloisonne badges.

Donning my tin foil hat....

Mike
Locked-down in sunny South Africa
 

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Discussion Starter #7
My September 1961 Spider came with two cloisonne badges. They are probably original as the silver on the wreath was long gone revealing the brass underneath.
So it is fair to assume that all models (even the Giulia 1600's ) were intended to have cloisonne badges on the front ... but of course we just don't know what Luigi in the factory was given to put on the later cars ...
Thanks for the reply Mike. I checked Classic Alfa´s website and they refer the cloasonne/enamel one (dash betwen AR and Milano in bottom) to all 750-101 cars, but also 105 ones pre ´72, they however don´t have any recommendation for the plastic one of being correct for 750-101, just pre ´72.
Dennis
 

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I recall that cloisonne badges were simply unavailable in the 70's and into the 80's, (the repro cloisonne badges only started to appear in the early 90's).

The only replacements available at that tme would have been the plasic 105 Alfa Romeo Milano badges.
 

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My under restoration mid year ‘61 101 Spider has a Cloisonne badge on the truck lock. The badge for the front grill is missing...or I have misplaced it.
 

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Giuliettaspyder,
It’s interesting that you posted the front and rear Spider badges had two different part numbers. Makes sense even if the plastic ones do not have threaded posts for the rear lock housing.
The badges on my December-built ‘61 had plastic posts that were different distances apart, center-to-center. The grill badge will not fit in the trunk lock housing. At least on mine. Both of the plastic pegs (not threaded) use the tiny metal insert clips to hold them in place. I found the pegs’ measurement problem when I bought two new cloisonnés. They were being sold with their two pegs having the same measurement for front or rear installation, even though the part numbers were different.

Before ordering check the new pegs center-to-center measurements to your parts’ holes for them. Ask questions. Also, I found not all repro cloisonnés are created equal. Some rear badges leave the Alfa logo crooked when applied. They can’t exactly spin to adjust that problem after one has installed them front or rear. At least not without changing the hole size.
 

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Barn101, please list the center to center spread for the front and rear plastic badges …….. I will add that info to my Badge & Script document.

Interestingly the Spare Parts Catalogs list grill badge change as (750 catalog) 1488.38.703 and (101-1300 catalog) 101.00.59.052.00. The luggage lid badge went from (750 catalog) 1495.46.706 to (101-1300 catalog) 2800.45000 to (101-1600 catalog) 101.03.59.064.00. No references in catalog to identify Cloisonné vs. plastic



 

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Hi all,

The distance of the holes on the Giulietta grills would be 27mm centre to centre.
The holes in the rear trunk lock of the Giulietta spider would be about 31 mm c. to c.
The badge on the spider trunk lock was enameled (2800.45000 ) as this badge did exist already starting in 1950 on the 1900 grill. That was no periode yet for plastic badges.
(The 1495.46.706 was the # for the complete lock Carl, very misleading in the early catalogs btw.)

Alfa changed numbers for this rear spider badge only once, the first number (2800.45000) is still mentioned in the 11/ 1961 bodyparts catalog ( 787). So at least untill 11/1961 there should be a enameled cloisonné ( 2800.45000) on the spider trunk locks. The successor, badge 101.03.59.064.00, can be seen firstly in the 10/64 Giulia 101 catalog (1016) making so a time window of about 3 years that isn't covered by the catalogs.
Was the 101.03.59.064.00 in plastic? in my opinion yes, why would they have changed it otherwise in the early sixties? And Carl ... maybe Barn101's second picture of the measurement of both plastic badges is providing here the missing link that we needed so badly to prove that the 101.03.59.064.00 badge was made in plastic.
We had to find any plastic Alfa - Romeo - Milano badges with the distance of about 31 mm c. to c. between the pins that would fit in the holes of the lock and not in the holes of the grill heart. So please Barn101, tell us that the badge measuring 30,2 mm on your second picture fits the spider trunk lid lock holes easily and that the two pins of that badge are straight ? Could it realy be that simple or am I missing something here ?

For the front badge:

The 1488.38.703 front badge shows up firstly in the 10/56 Giulietta catalog (5622).
Could we agree that it was an enameled badge seen that period ? It appeared also on the 1900CSS and the early 102 berlina and spider.
This number 1488.38.703 was succeeded by the 2800.45002, as it was mentioned in the catalogs of the furgone F12 (9/59), the 1900 CSS (4/1960) and the later 2000 berlinas and spiders ( 11/1960), thanks for helping Ruedi ! ( if interested, see also in the 1900 section, thread :
Are there different types of front enameled grill badges on the 1900 cars ?

Meanwhile, other cars like the Giuliettas, the 2600 cars, the Giulia 101 cars , Giulia spider veloce, even the 105 Giulia sprint gt received instead the #101.00.59.052.00 badge. Was this the first plastic front badge ? Untill now I don't know how to prove this. Can anyone help here ?
If the 2800.45002 was also in plastic yet as written on Ruedi's documents, why would Alfa add two different plastic badges in the same periode and mount them on different cars? What was the difference between them ?

After about 10/1964 the 101.00.59.052.00 badge was succeeded by the 2400.51002. this badge came on cars like the Giulia TZ, the 2600 cars including the 2600 SZ. It is also in a late amendment from 8/66 to the Giulia 101 cars catalog 1016 from 10/64.
The 2400.51002 was there to stay on the 105 cars, the Montreal ( front and rear badge), etc.... untill probably in 9/1973 ( from notes in German Alfa department documentation) when it had to be changed than for the 2400.51012 ,that was the plastic badge without 'Milano'.

Most of this is based on what I found in the catalogs. hopefully I have distilled it correctly.
Other toughts and corrections are always appreciated.

Rgds,

Thierry
 

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Thierry,
I attached those photos after I wrote the info, so yes, the pics (and pins) may be swapped in regard to grill & lock locations. Sorry for any confusion.

Both pins are straight, no threads. The grill pins are a bit more long than the other. I have had those plastic ones out of my “precious parts” tin several times going ‘round with badge vendors and measurements because the cloisonné badges I kept getting had pins that would not line up for my original lock holes.
Anyway, again, my car rolled out on December 6th. Sold to Hoffman on the 20th.
 

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Hi Barn101,

Main thing is that we would have now a plastic Alfa - Romeo - Milano badge that fits the holes of the lock easily but not the holes of the grill. is that correct ? Can you confirm that once again please ?

Could you also double check this with the other plastic badge that had the 27 mm distance ?

If all what we expect to find is correct, than we would have found the 101.03.59.064.00 badge . The advantage is that the 101.03.59.064.00 badge was unique, due to the distance of the pins it couldn't be used on any other Alfa part / car, unless forcing it to fit of course.

Maybe the solution is now in your hands !
Thanks,

Thierry
 

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My new trunk badge is already installed along with everything else on my trunk lid, so I’m not messing with that. I can pull the badge off of my grill and check that at some point with both plastic badges but maybe someone else with a ‘62 or later rear lock can confirm the hole measurement to my photos’ specs above.
 

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That goes without saying, maybe after the corona the badge could be sent more easily to someone that can check it on loose parts. Just a thought.

Stay safe,

Thierry
 

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Thierry,
I just pulled my restored grill out of its box since I’m waiting to install it. The first two photos I posted above are indeed the trunk lid badge & its measurements. Its pins will not fit in the grill’s holes, too wide. I adjusted my info above to reflect that. I think we can now confirm they had to be two separate part numbers. They ARE unique to each other.

Of course, now that I have the “missing links” and the entire BB world knows, I may have to reconsider buying the plastic ones if I ever make it to a concours. The anomalies that came on this Spider keep amazing me.

Stay healthy, everyone.
Dave
 

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I apologize for really screwing up the Spider data ………. working to late in the day.

Not wanting to screw it up a second time, it this a correct summary of above?
Grill badge: 53.79 OD, 27.48 spread
Luggage lid badge 54.08 OD, 30.20 spread
 
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