Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,130 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Did the first SS's have DCO3 Webers or were they all DCOE?
If not all one or the other, at what serial number did they change?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
3,988 Posts
Carl as I understand it, the first of the low nose 750 SS's and the first SZ's had 750 Veloce engines with DC03's BUT they were designated 00120 crankcases & were mated to early 5 speed split case trannies.

Sometime in late '59 or early '60 the 750 engines changed into the 101 engines but the SS numbering of 00120*xxxxx continued.

A friend owns one of these early engines, it's designated 00120, the number is below 100 but is all 750 & yes it's for sale, so if there's a Low Nose SS owner or early SZ owner on the hunt, send me a PM

Ciao
Greig
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
816 Posts
Hi Carl,

The SS/SZ changed from the DCO3 to the DCOE2 after engine # 00120.00200. (...if the catalog 776 is correct.)

Hi Greig,

You said : " it is all 750 .". Does this mean that the crankcase of that engine still has the small ribs ?


Rgds,

Thierry
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,963 Posts
I restored a pair of early 40DCOE2's for a low nose all aluminum SS some years ago. No idea if the engine was 101-1300, but more likely transitional.
1653183
 
  • Like
Reactions: pescara

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,282 Posts
You can'T lump SZ's and SS 's together because of a parts book. My SZ engine #157 (750) never had DCO3's .. It would have been silly as they were inferior to do if DCOE's were available and fitted. that is another subject.. The first 101 SS's were produced in '57-58 and undoubtly had DCO3's ...Find a 57 or 58 SS or even 59 and you might be able to figure out when the DCOE was a transformation,.. You can't automatically associate 750 engines with DCO3.. they are not necessarily connected as one and the same.. . Da Prato covers this in "The Racing Giuliettas" The parts book is not a good reference on breakpoints.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,963 Posts
Agree completely. Parts books do not represent production cars. They are "parts-books".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,251 Posts
Gordon, those were the ones for prototype #002, the probable 1958 Geneva show car built in 1957 ... presumably DCO3 at the time. Both #001 and #002 were rebodied by Alfa for resale to look more like the later low noses with shorter front and rear overhangs. #002 was sold 12/1960 after a career as a factory test mule. When sold it sported 750 engine #131 likely with DCOE2.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,963 Posts
Here's a bit more. These are the same 40DCOE2's on arrival. They went back with the correct yellow fuel line as well. I've saved the before and after photos.
1653211
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
258 Posts
Did the first SS's have DCO3 Webers or were they all DCOE?
If not all one or the other, at what serial number did they change?
I've seen two low nose 750 SS both came with Dco 3s. In fact, the dash has a provision for only 3 knobs (not the typical 4 knobs) since they all came with dco 3s which have no choke, there was no need for a 4th knob or hole in the dash.

Reed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
816 Posts
Hi all,

Thanks all for the input.
About the chronology of the change over from DC03 to the DCOE2:

On the next picture, an undated amendment to the 11/1958 catalog . So therefore it must be later than 11/1958. It shows that the DCOE2 was added officially by Alfa from Sprint Veloce and Spider Veloce engine 00106.00001 on.

1653289




The earliest documents of a DCOE carb that I found in my Weber documentation is from 6/1958 for the 3500 Maserati 42 DCOE3, a good chance that it was the first DCOE carb ever built.
So at least the first Alfa with a DCOE carb would definitely be produced later than 6/1958.


One of Fusi's failures I think is the picture on page 519 showing what he titled as being a Sprint Veloce engine but what in my opinion should be titled as the engine bay of SZ 10126.00003. ( although the number is not perfectly readable. Please check the picture in your own Fusi book.
This SZ engine at least had the DCO3 carbs, the SZ 10126.00003 would have been made in 1959 if here Fusi was correct.

1653311


1653312


Btw, remarkable on that picture is the use of the fuel pressure adjustable Fispa filter in combination with the DCO3, probably the Fispa FRB.11. that would be an anomaly don't you think ?

So for concluding here, a ' the egg or the chicken ' question: what happened firstly ?

What do you people think that happened in 1959-1960?

1. Did the Sprint Veloce / Spider Veloce received the 40 DCOE2 after that Alfa experimented with that carb on the SS/ SZ ?
or
2. Did the SS/SZ received the DCOE2 simultaneously with the introduction of that carb on the Sprint Veloce / Spider Veloce ?
or
3. Did the SS/SZ received the DCOE2 following the introduction of that carb on the Sprint Veloce and Spider Veloce ?

Another question:
Is there evidence of other existing SZ cars having originally fitted the DCO3 carbs ?
Or any periode pictures? ... would be great please. Thank you.

Corrections and other thoughts are always appreciated.
Rgds,

Thierry
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,963 Posts
I recently restored a pair of early 40DCOE2's for a USA customer that are complete with the narrow cold air box and early manifold without the screw in thermostat, using the in-line set up like 750's. It is clearly a 101-1300 manifold for DCOE's.
1653314

Notice the serial numbers from first year production.
1653315
1653316

The DCOE build progression goes 40DCOE1, 40DCOE2, 40DCOE3.
The 1 was transitional from DCO3 variations with all the basics of familiar Webers minus one. They used plain bushings in place of the 40DCOE2 ball bearings in shaft ends.
1653317

These also used the double ball end linkage like DCO3. They featured a complex vacuum system to suck air from the plain bushings, to avoid the air leaks and poor idle of DCO3's with functional drilled passages in the external wings and buttresses on the body with a connecting drilled passage in the Weber top.
1653318

These came in 35/38 and 40DCOE1 variants, all bodies cast as 40, and sleeved for smaller sizes. These use familiar DCOE internal chokes and jetting set-ups. These were transitional between DCO3 and DCOE and made a very short while.
1653319

All seem to have very low serial numbers.
1653320

While these could be used on a 750 and manifold with adapting rubber insulator / isolators as DCO3 replacements, I have yet to see a documented Alfa pair. The earliest DCOE2 I've worked on was #51.
1653321

I really enjoy saving these old DCOE variations. Hope this is helpful.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,130 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Rick .... I know you did a lot of research ..... did any SZ have DCO3?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,130 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Thierry
amendment to the 11/1958 catalog . So therefore it must be later than 11/1958. It shows that the DCOE2 was added officially by Alfa from Sprint Veloce and Spider Veloce engine 00106.00001 on.
Does it summarize down to all 750 Sprint Veloce and Spider Veloce were DCO3 and all 101 Sprint Veloce and Spider Veloce were DCOE. But SS and SZ are not resolved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,678 Posts
did any SZ have DCO3?
The photo from Fusi, age 519, quoted in post 11 above, does show one. I just checked my copy, and we can clearly read 0126.00003. The first digit (1) is hidden by a wiring harness. From the table at the end of Fusi, the car would have been built early 1959. But remembering how Zagato operated, the drivetrain for that car may very well have been manufactured a few months before.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,282 Posts
Rick .... I know you did a lot of research ..... did any SZ have DCO3?
It's never been a point of my "research".. I only repeat what is written in knowledgeable references. The first SZ was produced after the DCOE was introduced and I have no reasonable reason why an inferior DCO3 would have been part of the introduction. Everything about my one experience with an SZ checks out with these references and it was an early model in the run. Perhaps you need to investigate the "cellar" car uncovered in Italy recently. Besides wasn't this about SS's .. Sorry if the SZ crept into the discussion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,130 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
OK, getting back to SS - owner reports sent to me
10120.00054 - DCO3
10120.00168 - DCOE

And back to SZ,:
Tabucchi Guide To The Identification Of Alfa Romeo Cars lists DCO3 for 1959-60 and from 1961 chassis 00045 the switch to DCOE .... well before Rick's 00157
Fusi ---- list production as 1957-62 ........more Fusi mistakes ... he does not list carburetor models.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,963 Posts
When built, these cars were not "collectables" and record keeping not as important as today. Plus, NO COMPUTERS. All records were done by eyeball and written record. Extreme cases exist with Alfa and Ferrari race cars where components were swapped both around and updated as time went by. Again, no computers, and who knows today what was done after hours to keep them running or racing.
I LIKE this as it is typical of the time period, and Italian cars in particular. Over time you see things not discovered before, that have little in common with existing parts books, part numbers or other cars of the same period.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top