Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,104 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
My 61' spider normale has always run hot,so I'm wondering if a blocked intake manifold passage could be the culprit,or just a contributing factor,or none of the above(maybe a head gasket). Took the intake manifold off today and found the lower water passage blocked off by the gasket which doesn't have a hole for that water passage. The passage in the head is plugged with debris(I haven't poked at it yet),and pictures will show the part of the gasket that covered this hole is bulged out.Also in the last photo,does that look to be an oil leak from a ruptured O-ring?Any help appreciated,Phil
 

Attachments

·
Richard Jemison
Joined
·
7,081 Posts
Head

Well as to the stain there`s no "O" ring in that area.

As to the blocked lower "hole" I can`t recall ever seeing such on any other 101 Normale head. Is this a 750 series 1300 head pergaps?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,104 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Richard,My spider N. was built April,1960,numbers match according to Fazio;pretty sure it's 101,having rectangular oil block off plates.(but is interim).I've had seepage or leakage at the front right corner of the head/block area,now clean in the picture,but that exposed gasket would be soaked in oil and run down the block a little.Thought it might have migrated back. AFA running hot,radiator cleaned/rodded,system flushed,engine runs good,timing seems right,just so hot in the engine compartment the hood prop rod couldn't be touched without using a rag or glove.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Phil,

Was the intake gasket on backwards? and covered up the hole in the block? What is the VIN of your car? I own 1495 09077 since 1973.

Dan
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,104 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Dan,There was never a hole in the gasket for that lower water passage.I'm told that the gasket is for a later model,I think 1750,but ports are only slightly bigger,and that lower hole can easily be cut out of this new gasket. I'm just wondering if I should go straight to a new head gasket,or if a hole in this new gasket will have my engine running cooler? FWIW,my compression is between 165-170psi across all four cylinders.
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,881 Posts
The stain looks to be fuel. Probably ran down when you pulled the intake off. You can see the same stain on the gasket.

I kinda of doubt that the plug hole is the overheat problem but you never know until you try. It looks like that hole is there to flow water right around the carb base to preheat the air/fuel mixture.

Clean the hole out and see what the debris is.

Many years ago I had a GTV-6 that another shop head put head gaskets on and it started overheating about 500 miles later. We found some clear silicone squeeze out from the head gasket. So we pulled the heads and the other shop had smeared enough silicone on the block, head and head gaskets that the silicone that squeezed out had blocked every coolant passage in the head and block.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,346 Posts
Looks like a 1600 head gasket if that matters. It would to me. It's usually stuff like this that raises deeper questions.

Not enough experience here with Normale kookieness.. only owned one..to guess or comment.. Did most of my learnin' on Veloce's and most of that is forgotten..Don't have a clue why they (AR) had so many variations on N intake manifolds and there were quite a few from the parts manual
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
336 Posts
The head gasket is likely a 105 1300 gasket. The coolant passage that is blocked could have been simply a drain passage for the intake manifold. Without that passage, draining the block does not drain the intake manifold, which could be a concern in cold weather.
Has the thermostat been tested or replaced? Has the gauge and sender been tested? Has another temperature reading device been used to verify the coolant temperature? Is the radiator clear -internally and externally?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,104 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Update:previously,I said that the radiator had been rodded out and tested but didn't say when;that was 12 years ago.Anyway,here's where I'm at.(1)drained cooling system,block.(2)Flushed/slushed radiator with CLR(calcium,lime,rust)radiator "seems" ok.(3))Put pictured new Reitz intake manifold gasket on after cutting a hole in it for that bottom passage.(4)checked,replaced 180F. thermostat after drilling a small weep hole in it,(appx..031")per Gordon Raymond suggestion.(5)installed completely rebuilt water pump with enlarged weep hole(.096",again,Gordon) (6)bled/burped cooling system using the Lisle type procedure;large funnel air-tight in top of radiator,anti-freeze in funnel,rev engine 1500RPM til' hot and bubbles stop,close radiator,done.Drove 30+miles,now parked,idling,water temp.190F.on guage,200F.temp.checked with laser pointed at thermostat seat.Oil temp.guage up to first dot,appx.160F.The overflow tube was dripping coolant,the heater valve,heater hoses as well as upper radiator hose were all way too hot to touch,bottom radiator hose barely warm.Here in Atlanta it's around 60F.I believe I'm back where I started,too hot.What say you? Dan,my vin is 1495.09653
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,881 Posts
I agree. The radiator needs to be rodded out by a shop that knows what its doing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,346 Posts
I think it's obvious the radiator is not flowing coolant.
Can't see how it is anything else.. time to visit a radiator shop for a diagnosis.. there comes a time to put hands on hips, wave the white flag and listen to an expert who has seen it all. It's so much more satisfying .
 

·
Trained (ex)Professional, , 1953-2018 RIP,
Joined
·
16,232 Posts
A potential valuable piece of info is missing; what was the temp gauge reading during the drive?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
791 Posts
Isn't there an old saying something to the effect that, "If your heating problem is at speed then it's the radiator - if your heating problem is at idle then it's the water pump". I would add that if your heating problem is at both conditions then, uh oh, the old saying doesn't cover that.

I've encountered the problem with the hole less gasket but I noticed it during a rebuild. It is not uncommon, apparently.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,104 Posts
Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Jim,At speed,The WTguage reads 190F and could be off some,but I did take a lot of time in the kitchen calibrating both the water and oil temp guages with their sending units.Just a guess,but when I see the oil temp guage start to move(takes forever),I figure the engine is hot.AFA the radiator,I believe the tanks were taken off twice(12 yrs. ago).First when I had the shop service it,and then again when I brought it back because the engine was still running hot.I had them take a few dings out of the top tank the second time around,so I know it was off then.Whether it was rodded,cleaned,tested again??. Something else I noticed is when parked and warmed up,both water and oil temp guages will rise/move up when revving the engine. So does this confirm that hot water is being recirculated through the engine and cooler water is not being picked up from the lower radiator? Seems this condition would increase pressure too? What's a fair price for a re-core and what shop is familiar with Alfas,I'm in Atlanta,Ga. Also,I could use a new radiator cap gasket.Who has them or does anything interchange?Thanks for all replies,really appreciate it.Phil
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
452 Posts
Phil, I don’t think any shop, anywhere is familiar with Alfas anymore. A Giulietta radiator is pretty generic brass affair though so anyone that repairs brass equipment (in itself pretty rare) can work on them. When I lived in Atlanta I used Sims Radiator near the Chamblee MARTA station although they have (had?) shops around town. Five or six years ago a rodding and resolder was <$100 if I remember correctly.

Mike
 

·
Trained (ex)Professional, , 1953-2018 RIP,
Joined
·
16,232 Posts
Jim,At speed,The WTguage reads 190F and could be off some,...
Thanks for the info!
My initial, short answer thought is to button things up and just drive the car as no real problem exists.

Now for the long answers/thoughts.
The gauge temps reading the same at both no-load idle and at during high load driving suggest to me that the radiator is flowing just fine as is the coolant velocity through it. If there was reduced flow through the radiator, the temp gauge would (should) have gone up as a result of the radiators inability to cope with the additional heat generated by the additional load.

The observation that the lower rad hose is much cooler than the top hose proves one or more of the following;
1) the radiator is functioning as it should
2) insufficient flow through the radiator
3) insufficient flow to the radiator
Again, with the loaded and no load gauge temps being the same, numbers 2 & 3 can pretty much be discarded.

A bit of dripping/leakage from the overflow hose on a vehicle without a coolant recovery bottle is normal. It is the system finding it's own coolant level and should stop after a thermal cycle or two.

I have found over the years that many gauges are installed just to fill the holes punched in the dash by the manufacturer. IOW, they are NOT precision instruments (although I think one would like them to be) with perhaps a +/- 5% or more margin of error being commonplace. I would not be personally concerned that your temp gauge reads 190; it may just be where it wants to read. Any readings outside of a particular gauges' 'norm' however are cause for investigation.
What might be an interesting 'test' would be to swap the oil and water temp senders (they are the same part number) and observe what, if any, temp gauge changes occur.

The observation that the temp readings change when the engine is revved may not have anything to do with the actual temps but with battery (system) voltage. What is your system voltage at idle and off idle?

And a final, really outside the box question; is the crankshaft pulley stock?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
296 Posts
Hi alphil,
I noted down a few things I would check by elimination if I would have the same problem with my Giulietta TI.
First of all a stupid thing I once had when driving a Triumph spitfire that got hot every time. Finally I found out that it was a curve hidden in a tube that was filled with rust and mud for more than 90%.
If at the other side you have changed the tubes then they won’t be the troublemakers.
Is the heater of the passengers compartment completely filled with water? Could be an air trap there giving some trouble.

Are you shure the thermostatic valve is working? Even if it is a new one?
I guess the water temp gauge needle climbs when you starts the cold engine and let it warm up in idling stationary mode ?
If yes, does the needle respond visually with a dive of the temp when the 83° Celsius is achieved for a short while ? ( = moment of opening from the thermostat?) If yes, that is ok. Let the engine cool down again completely.
Start the same procedure when the engine is cold again. Check now the two tubes of the radiator during the warming up. Have someone else for looking for the diving moment of the needle of the gauge. From that specific moment firstly the upper tube would get hot quickly (behind the thermosat) , followed by the lower tube of the radiator. Please stay paying attention for the dangerous propeller when checking the tubes!
If the lower tube stays cold ( ‘barely warm’ as you mentioned before) I would think that the water doesn’t circulate enough through the radiator.
Have you tried warming up a cold engine without thermostat and feel if the lower tube is warming up slowly from the beginning, and this with about the same temp as the upper tube? Again when the lower tube stays cold, there is insufficient traffic of water in my opinion.
Have you checked the movement of the water with an open radiator during the warming up including the moment the thermostat opens? Are there air bubbles at any moment?
In the open radiator filler you could put a thermometer and measure the heath of the water .
Do pay attention when opening a hot radiator ! The water in a closed system is under presure and more than 100° celcius!
A last little idea for if you change the core of the radiator : I once cutted out of a useless alfasud radiator the little piece of the frame where the temperature sender for the electric fan was mounted and asked the shop that was going to change the core of the radiator of my Giulietta to weld it at the same time in the cupper frame . So now I can install easily an extra electric fan if I like.
This all are just some thoughts I had and please ignore this mail if you have checked all this already or if you think they are of no importance, I only try to help.
Rgds,
Thierry
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,881 Posts
I just had a 79 spider I've been working on. I felt it was running to hot even though in the summer the gauge read about 185. But hoses would get really hot and slightly puffy. When the motor was pulled to change the intake from a Spica converted weber to the euro set up. i went ahead and had the radiator rodded. At first the shop ran water through it. Said he thought it was fine. I told him to go ahead and rod it out. Turned out about a third of the tubes were stopped up.

They will build up scale inside even if there just sitting with coolant in it.
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top