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Discussion Starter #21
It's been a while...but I've been slowly moving this along. The fabrication of all the main parts is now complete, I just need to fit the air/water charge cooler pre-rad, header and pump etc, then off we go. I've also decided to go for water/methanol injection as I've been getting concerned (paranoid) about detonation on the relatively high (for supercharged) CR I'm using.

I'm using a bike TB for the blower bypass valve for a number of reasons, not least being that the OEM bit wouldn't fit in my car!

More pertinent to the orignal thread, I converted from batch to sequential injection a while ago. I wasn't happy with the control at very low demand (due to the big injectors) so going sequential was a zero-cost thing to try. I just had to add a few wires and a cam-angle sensor. I modified the base of the original distributor (which I had previously removed as it's running wasted spark) to take a crank trigger from a Lancia Thema Turbo and this is working well. I probably should have wired it up like this the first time round, don't really know why I didn't. Overall, this has made a big improvement to fuel control at light loads and I've been running for a while now with a large chunk of the map set to lean AFR and the ECU working adaptive, so it's gradually tuning itself in as I drive. On a run in the countyside the other week I got 27.7 mpg (imperial) which isn't too bad I reckon. Of course, all this will go out the window once the blower is on....but it keeps me amused...

More anon once I've got all the bits bolted on. I intend doing a 'boost' check by running it up off-load to see just what it produces. Fuel-wise I'll put a simple +50% @ 7psi into the MAP table.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Finally some shots of the bits....on the carpet, not the car though ;)

Inlet is part of the Ford SuperCoupe casting with part of a 164 plenum grafted on, The throttle body goes here, with the IACV attached to the side and working in the normal way. Outlet is part of the Ford with some 2 3/4" pipe, plus the elbow is where the bypass valve fits. This connects back to the short stub of 2" pipe on the inlet 'lump'. I'm using a 40mm bike TB as the bypass valve. I don't think it's apparent on these shots, but the outlet casting has '3.8' script cast into it for the Ford it came from - I tweaked this to read 3.0 Sad, ain't I!

Cooler is the core of a Jaguar XK cooler grafted into a cut-down 164 plenum.

It's all the size & shape it is in order to fit in the Stratos rep.

With hindsight, an in-line cooler would probably have been better.....

Having had a critical look at it, and following advice, I'm now going to do per-port water injection as this is the only way I can see to get even feed to each cylinder without risking problems of it wetting out in the cooler etc. Another good reason to go for an in-line cooler and retain a stock plenum.
 

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I like that intercooler design. It's very clever, and space efficient. I think it will offer good cooling and a low pressure drop. I can't understand exactly where you are putting the throttle and or bypass valve(s) but with more pictures it will probably become clear.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Hi Greg,

The first picture shows the blower inlet 'stub'. This adapts the old Ford OEM inlet casting that mates to the blower inelt with the 164 TB, so my throttle plate is pre-blower.

I'll do some more pictures once the whole thing is assembled. Some of those shots do look a bit 'objet d'art' don't they! Or perhaps familiar objects from unfamiliar angles ;)

I understand that the core I've used works well on the Jaguar, so figured the demands of half a 4l motor running more boost than I intend would be similar to an entire 3l
 

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It all makes sense now! I am glad you are putting the throttle pre-blower. That eliminates the need for a second bypass valve, and with this project it doesn't really add any complexity. The crinkle finish powder coating looks great.

Looking to see what some factory engineers did, as you did with this intercooler is almost always a good starting point. They have a large budget and a lot of brainpower to throw at these problems. I always look to see what they did. In this case I think your intercooler solution is brilliant. Not too expensive, very effective and most importantly it fits.

It's funny you call this a "tribute car" I think with a supercharged Alfa V6 in there, the original street versions of the Statos will be paying tribute to your tail lights.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #26
....some of the parts assembled onto the car now.....

I've put some tape over where the TB fits so it's hard to make out.

There is a 90 elbow that goes from the end of the blower output pipe to the inlet of the charge cooler/plenum. Still on the stock plenum at the moment. next step is to couple up the drive belt, make sure that's straight & true, then see how much boost it gives.

Out of curiosity, I connected the bypass valve vacuum line to the engine and fired it up. Quite surprised (but pleased) at how long it stays in bypass - I think this is going to give a really smooth transition on/off boost.


....getting closer......
 

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I like it, although I am not too crazy about blue hoses with white lettering on a green car. I would have preferred black, silver, or green hoses. :)

Greg
 

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Are those just bolts going into the valve cover holding the blower on there? If so, I doubt it'll hold. The packaging is quite good. Hat's off for the fabbing "outside-of-the-box". Obviously a challenge given the space constraints. I can see the fins of the intercooler through the ports on the plenum - what's the cooling medium?

I think a big turbo installed down low would have been a wiser choice. On vehicles in this configuration, you have a lot of open space under there beneath the "bonnet" in the rear. 'Course that would entail an elaborate custom exhaust (6 into 1 or dually if you wanted). One thing for sure the top of the engine would be much cleaner and accessible. You'd have to find space for an intercooler as well (Thunderbird SC, or Buick GN?). But definitely do-able given the skill displayed.

Cool car & BTW, nice torque curve. You could drive that thing half-way 'round the world and never come across another!
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Greg, When I built it, black was an extra cost, long delay option only available on selected sizes...and I'm impatient!! Now of course, I've found a supplier that's local, cheaper, and carries stock of most colours. I've chosen black for all the pipe work associated with the cooler circuit at least! Sadly, the lettering seems obligatory regardless of supplier - they never miss a marketing oportunity and the darn stuff won't come off. I don't much care for the bright blue myself either TBH, but it does the job.

ToonRboy, the valve cover is made from billet and is 25mm thick, relieved as needed to clear the valvegear etc. That's not obvious from these shots though. You can just make out the edge on the first of the 3 shots. The blower fixings are M10 thread inserts that go 20mm into the billet so I'm pretty happy they will hold...time will tell though! Turbo - well, it's been done with one of these. A friend had the same car with a twin-turbo setup that worked very well, but he went through many, many problems to get it working right. He had to sacrifice quite a large chunk of space from the trunk area for the rear turbo, and the front one was a real mare to get at! Certainly, a single turbo setup would be a better option for packaging than the twin. I don't really know why...but I never wanted to go turbo on this car, plus, I've always had a hankering to play with a blower - again, can't really say why that is!

The cooler core is from a supercharged Jaguar. I've still to add the pre-rad, pump, header tank and associated plumbing, plus the water injection kit...so it's getting pretty full in there.

No doubting that I've made the thing quite hard to work on now though. Changing the plugs on the front bank means removing the blower and everything connected to it. Far from ideal, but there simply wasn't anywhere else it could go without doing serious chassis mods or removing the A/C compressor. That's something I'll not do - this is a road car (so I want it reasonably comfortable), and even a hint of sunshine turns it onto a sweatbox without the A/C. The oil filler had to go as well - I'll use the cover over the oil pump drive for top-ups.

Space-wise under the 'hood' isn't as good as it might seem from these shots. The upper limit of usable volume (assuming you don't want to see out the back) is defined by that diagonal chassis brace + 2" more or less. There is about 2" above the level of the plenum at the back. As it is, I can still see OK in the rear view mirror, although the blower outlet has taken a chunk out of it.

The other brand of this kit has a flat deck built in to the rear cover (as per the original car) so the upper limit is top of plenum + roughly 3" all the way from front to back and left to right.


Unlike many of the Hot Rods you guys have over there, that have a fantastic clean look under the hood....whenever I open this up I usually think....strewth...how much crap have I squeezed in there.....
 

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That valve cover mounting system is pretty unique. I never thought of that. Once it's all dialed in I think it will work well, and the hassle involved with a spark plug change won't occur too often. Hopefully you won't have many initial problems. Initially go with spark plugs one heat range colder than stock.

Historically Lanica (and Fiat) rally cars have been supercharged. The only one I can think of with a turbo was the Delta S4 which also had a supercharger. So if for no other reason than sound or historical purposes, I think on this car the blower is the way to go.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Minor update....fitted the blower belt and ran up the motor yesterday. Belt run works fine...but what a racket! I was expecting the blower to be noisy on open inlet/outlet ports...but wow!

Assembly of the belt is a real pig, but I've figured out the method now, so next time will be easier.
 

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Could very well be your exhaust--I gained 25 hp just by changing out the glasspacks behind my headers!

I also run an Eaton supercharger. Now have it at 8.5 psi with S pistons...obviously on race fuel.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Cheers Bill.

I'll be using water/methanol injection, so from your info of running S pistons @ 8.5psi boost, I reckon I should be safe on pump gas with my setup. All coming together now....

Exhaust will be sorted at some point, but it'll have to do for now. So much to do, so little time & money to do it all.
 

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Danger Zone!!!

Beware! I am running 112 racing fuel, not 93 octane pump gas. And a water-to-air intercooler. Plus my car is used only for autocross, with average run under a minute, and at full throttle maybe 15 to 20% of time.

I destroyed an almost brand new 3 liter engine 3 years ago with S pistons and 6 psi boost during a run on a hot day. Was relying solely on an Aquamist 1S water injection system that was tuned on the dyno to put in as much water as it could without quenching the power when I first put down the throttle.

I had a part of the course where shifting really wasn't going to be a good option, so I ran to 7000 rpm (rev limiter back then was at 7400). Since I had bigger injectors than OEM, but not huge ones, the fuel surely went lean (had seen on dyno that system starting going toward lean above 6100). Engine apparently suffered high speed detonation and destroyed #2 piston in short order (less than a second, as I never heard anything except the explosion). Large chunks of that piston then dropped down and twisted #1 con rod.

A couple of watchouts here: 1) If you rely on water injection, go for a sequential system and have a light that lets you know it is working (and keep the reservoir with water!); 2) use high enough octane.

Before each of my runs in warm weather I run the pump and fan for my intercooler and get the intercooler cooled off (with engine turned off). That way my air/fuel charge is nice and cool. Yes, that gives more power, but most importantly deters detonation.

One last thing: I threw away the Zat Pandora's box and L-Jetronic and installed a programable Haltech E6X. Then with new engine spent alot of time and $$ on dyno setting up the engine. Was especially careful of high speed detonation.
 

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I should add that the engine now has 550 cc injectors.

Idle is just fine--then again, my "idle" is about 1500 rpm! I run cold plugs, and biggest challenge is getting the engine warmed up to temp before runs. A slow idle would surely foul the plugs.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
I'm certainly concerned about detonation - hence fitting the air/water cooler and the water/methanol injection. I'm happy the injectors are going to be big enough, and getting timing and fuel right isn't an issue with the ECU I use - it's all down to the basic 'physics' of the setup - will it work or won't it! There are too many variables that I can't answer to make anything other than a guess at the boost I'll get. It won't be more than 8.5psi and could be as low as 6 at lower revs. Really don't know, although I'm tempted to run it up off load and find out.

I plan on driving it to the rolling road aspirated then bolting the neccesary bits on when I get there. I still want to try and do a couple of power runs first though - as it arrives, for reference, then add one of the old moving flap AFM units and do it again just to answer an old question.
 

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Hey Chris,

I thought the numbers on your engine as it stands look quite good. Very different to what it would look like running the Dino 246 engine (195hp/[email protected]).

I would be worried about blowing-up that nice motor too. Too much static compression IMO. If that's an M62 blower on there, I'd keep the boost down if I were you. As you can see in this graph, it doesn't flow much more at 10psi than it does at 5.
M62 Flow Map.jpg
You definitely have sufficient injector. Is the Haltech handling your spark? If so, I would configure it to retard the spark advance using input (trigger) from MAP. I know Greg uses the Water/Meth to handle this, but it's extra insurance. You'll lose performance by retarding the spark, but blown engines can stand a less agressive curve.

For clarification, here is a pic of what I meant on the turbo thing. Not to rebuke anything said of Lancia history, it seems to me that since the 70's the Lancia Delta HF Integrale, the Lancia Beta Monte Carlo Turbo, as well as the most powerful Stratos -
Lancia Beta Monte Carlo Engine.jpg
were all turbo's. BTW - This pic is from a Lancia Beta Monte Carlo.

Best regards,
 

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ToonRboy:

No offense, but I think you are reading that graph backwards. That chart shows the supercharger flowing less air at the inlet at 10psi than at 5psi. This particular graph, while accurate, confuses a lot of people. Eaton is now going to a more conventional compressor map instead of using these graphs.

Greg,
hiperformancestore.com

Greg
 
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