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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Yeah I know.

I have been working with Dupont for a few months working a deal on some Krytox grease and the best and proper grease for this bearing and environment !!
We have 2 greases that we now use in the bearings for a long, maintenance free life.
Krytox 206, 215
I will be using the 215 due to the fact that it can handle 650˚F.(standard grease only 230˚F) and Moly as an additive

I am attaching some PDF files sent to me by Dupont.
I was lucky enough that they sent me both grease samples. Enough to fill 6 bearings. I did so and have been testing them myself with great results.

One big difference is that there is MINIMAL grease loss through the seals unlike the standard grease used in these bearings.

The krytox is handling up real well. I have been talking on a weekly basis with a rep there, sending him pictures and so forth of the bearing.
He pretty much assured me that with use of krytox there is a very good possibility that the bearing will last 5 years or longer (some factors may reduce life like bad seals) without anything done to it. In that time checks on the bearing are always a good idea. And a possible clean and re-pack may be done when it needs it if it needs it.

This grease can take massive load and high RPM's.

I was chatting with a customer about it today and thought I would share this info.


Now I may offer a service for repacking of these bearings, either yours or a brand new bearing with Pulley, or bearing alone.
repacking with Krytox 215 grease lubricant.

Since I am able to get a great deal on this grease (Retail $300.00 per kilo/2.2lbs)

Now I am running this as a test to see if you guys are interested?

I have done the 24V bearing, the saab bearing and so forth to alleviate this problem.
The problem is NOT the bearing, size etc and so on. With research and help from Dupont I have come to realize that it is the grease.

I am one for trying my best to keep the car as stock as possible when it comes to these things. I find other applications to not suit the needs very well. I personally rather keep the exact setup that the engineers designed for this application. Other applications that we have found in the past years will work but most likely for the same amount of time as the OEM since they all use the same bearing anyway and all use the same grease. My 24V bearing started making noise pretty quick. Just like all the other replacements.
Also rather not replace the pulley every time it goes bad even though the saabs are $20. I rather have security in knowing that bearing is going to last.

The rep at Dupont was telling about some race teams that now use krytox in all there bearings due to failures left and right with bearings of the same dimensions as the 164. They had such great success with it and have had nearly 0 failures of any bearing packed with Krytox.

I can clean and repack bearings as long as they are still intact, seals are still good, but may just be low on grease.

Here are my initial rates for this.

1. Send me your bearing and pulley together: $20.00 to clean/repack (bare in mind we only pack these with 70-75% grease.
100% krytox grease packed in the bearing, this will not mix with standard bearing grease.

2. Brand New pulley packed with Krytox, +$15.00 to the on-line price of the pulley
(I will be lowering pulley cost soon)

3. New bearing alone with krytox: $37.00 (may differ, SKF used only) for the bearing and $15.00 to repack.
(Price of repack does not include my labor, covers the grease cost only)

4. You can also send me a bearing of choice if you rather purchase it and I can repack it for $17.00 per bearing.
This price includes all bearings of similar size
--------------------------------------------------------
5. 24V timing bearings: pending
6. 24V timing tensioner/hydraulic bearing: Pending
7. 24V serp bearings: $20 per bearing
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TAKING ORDERS NOW


I can assure you this will be a maintenance free bearing once re-packed. I check every so often is recommended.
No need to keep replacing bearings, wasting time finding alternatives, replacing the alternatives, modifying things to work, not having the correct bearing and surface area of the pulley to fit the belt.

Simple re-pack of existing or new bearing and your done.

Please let me know what you think before I buy a bulk order. I would appreciate it.

Specific details below:
 

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Glad to hear of your efforts. I will be a customer when you get in gear.

I certainly agree with Dupont and you that the problem is the OEM grease not holding up. It was mentioned in a much earlier post that while the common grease is good for only just above 200F plus, I reasoned that the engine compartment is probably 200F plus due to the heat in the cooling system, and the airflow around the exhaust system. Thus, the stock bearing is more than likely doomed for temps and loads at the specs set by Alfa, as it can run at it's max allowables in many circumstances.

The Krytox solution should be the hot ticket. Thanks for your efforts.
 

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Ditto, I am sure and do I have a load of bearing/pulleys just laying in a parts drawer or what?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Well, thats great! I am glad I have this response so far and from some veterans at that! BTW my pleasure.

My plan is to get as many people on board with this so that I can buy some krytox in bulk rather than in 2 or 8 oz tubes as it cost more that way.

After the initial run, I most likely will be offering the OEM pulleys as long as they last already packed with Krytox at the current or lowered price I am going to have soon.

Average cost per bearing at $17 is a good price IMO for a superior grease that should give your bearing long long life.

If your interested please e-mail, call or reply to this post and when I am ready for bearings I will let you all know personally!

If you have any questions please by all means let me know.

Ciao!

Jason
 

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Jason,

I'll have pulleys for you to repack with Krytox for me. One has an unused, just-pressed-in new bearing, but I'd love to have it longevitified prior to use. I hate having these bearings fail, and we have a fleet of 164s here. Most likely, I'll send you that double-row 24V timing bearing I bought from you to have you pack with Krytox. I'm still expecting to use it sometime, and I have no 24V systems.

Remember that you have all of the 24V systems out there for which you should offer service on the (multiple) T-belt idlers, maybe even the t-belt tensioner bearings. It's a pitiful thing for those bearings to fail and trash heads. Sounds like a bit wider market for you than just the serpentine idlers.

Michael
 

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Bearing seals

Does anyone know if one can get new seals for these bearings from bearing supply shops? The seals on old bearings often harden and can crumble, so new seals would be great to have at the time of repacking.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Does anyone know if one can get new seals for these bearings from bearing supply shops? The seals on old bearings often harden and can crumble, so new seals would be great to have at the time of repacking.
Not that I know of, but the bearings themselves are inexpensive, maybe $13.
If that is the case I rather supply a new bearing re-packed.

Michael, yes I am also going to offer for all 24V bearings and hydraulic tensioner bearings as well.
I may even be able to supply grease for fan bearings, A/C clutch bearings, Alternator bearings and so forth at a good cost.

Thanks all. I may be up and running in about 2-3 weeks. Maybe sooner.

Remember, price is not set in stone yet. I hope to keep it around this cost though. Multipul pulleys I might be able to give a bulk order discount.

I may have some used pulleys ready to go soon with a core charge of $65.00, once I get yours back then you get the core of course. ;)


Ciao!
Jason
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Ok.
I have sealed the deal.
Looks like I will have my vat of krytox soon.

I just got off the phone with the automotive expert at Dupont and we discussed cleaning out of the old hydrocarbon grease and proper re-packing of the bearing which we have set at only 50% as that is all the bearing will need.

Procedure is very simple. I will clean out all the old grease, dry it out and clean it out again to make sure every last hydrocarbon is out. Re-pack at 50% capacity run it for 2-5 minutes by hand to seat all the grease then re-pack to make sure it is at 50%. Clean all the seals and replace and it is ready to go.
I have to make sure that old grease is gone as it does not mix and will cause a hot spot in the bearing.

He mentioned to me he filled a bearing for a work truck that has seen the worst case environment and has not had to touch the bearing now in 7 years.

Also another great story. A customer repacked a wheel bearing for a boat trailer, he had the wheels sitting in water in Maine for like a year or in and out of the water for that period of time. He had replace all the hubs and what not but the bearings where perfect, he has been a customer for 10 years since.

He said this will take care of the problem for sure.

If you want to send me bearings in the next 1-2 weeks please let me know?

I will be starting soon.

Thanks all. I am 100% satisfied that this will be the end of the failed 12V serpentine belt bearing.

No more replacing it year after year. No more alternative bearings that use the same hydrocarbon grease that will fail in no time as well.
No retro-fit jobbies.
Just your OEM bearing now maintenance free. I am sure this gives us all a piece of mind.

I will have my guarantee up soon as well as final prices that I will be offering.

Jason
 

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So, is this a problem on Milanos, or just 164's because of increased engine heat?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
So, is this a problem on Milanos, or just 164's because of increased engine heat?
No not really. Both motors produce pretty close if not the same amount of heat.
But the Milano does not have a serpentine belt system which uses a tensioner pulley.


But like I mentioned I can pack any bearing for a good cost.

If your running the hydraulic tensioner this stuff would be great for that bearing and internally.

Jason
 

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Are you supplying a new bearing with the up grade grease at this time? I'd rather not send you a bearing that has been in service and may be slightly worn, but not showing any failure signs yet. If your not supplying new bearings, I'll buy one and send it to you.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Are you supplying a new bearing with the up grade grease at this time? I'd rather not send you a bearing that has been in service and may be slightly worn, but not showing any failure signs yet. If your not supplying new bearings, I'll buy one and send it to you.
Richard,
If you mean new bearings like the ones in the picture above, yes. Plenty of those in-stock. Takes about 30 minutes or so to clean and pack a bearing with krytox.
I can have the bearing alone within 1-2 days from my supplier.

So I guess my answer is yes. I only have enough krytox to pack about 4 at the moment.

Let me know?
Ciao!
Jason
 

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I had read Jason's intent from earlier postings to include all of these:

1) supply new idler/bearing assemblies loaded with krytox, or

2) re-pack owner supplied assemblies whether new or used with krytox as a life-extending measure, or

3) -- and this may have been wrong -- to replace the bearings in owner supplied idler assemblies with new bearings cleaned and repacked with krytox.

I'd understood an estimated surcharge for the clean-out and krytox repack. and an additional charge for bearing press-out and press-in as part of option 3 for refurbishing owner supplied assemblies. Jason, please correct me where I'm wrong. I'd personally expected to send a mix of used but thought to be serviceable assemblies for life-extension treatment.

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
I had read Jason's intent from earlier postings to include all of these:

1) supply new idler/bearing assemblies loaded with krytox, or

2) re-pack owner supplied assemblies whether new or used with krytox as a life-extending measure, or

3) -- and this may have been wrong -- to replace the bearings in owner supplied idler assemblies with new bearings cleaned and repacked with krytox.

I'd understood an estimated surcharge for the clean-out and krytox repack. and an additional charge for bearing press-out and press-in as part of option 3 for refurbishing owner supplied assemblies. Jason, please correct me where I'm wrong. I'd personally expected to send a mix of used but thought to be serviceable assemblies for life-extension treatment.

Michael
Pretty Much got it. The pressing is optional. But I can send a NEW bearing alone without pulley packed with krytox.
basically, new bearing charge, clean and repack charge plus shipping.

Used pulleys sent to me should be in good condition, no damage to seals. As long as they are still ok and not making a large amount of noise I can repack them for long life.
This is one thing I discussed with Dupont. Should I replace the bearing or repack it. They basically said as long as it is still going and not totally gone it can be repacked for a long life.
I will have to do a little inspection when I get the used ones to deem them good enough for a second life. But most should be good to go.


Jason
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Bearing Alone info:

3. New SKF (only) bearing alone with krytox: $37.00 (63004-2RS1)+$15.00 Krytox (SKF bearing retail $51.19)Total: $52.00

(Price of repack does not include my labor, covers the grease cost only)

4. You can also send me a bearing of choice if you rather purchase it and I can repack it for $18.00 per bearing. I do not recommend a cheap bearing, please stick with SKF. If you send me a no name bearing I cannot guarantee it due to low quality. There are many 63004-2RS1 bearings that are in the $11-15 range made in china/japan that are not very good.

More info:
Krytox® greases and oils provide a thick lubricating film for bearings. This film reduces metal-to-metal contact in the bearings, resulting in superior load carrying capability.



Proper lubrication is achieved by using the correct amount of grease. Too little grease in the bearings causes premature failure. Too much grease at the initial fill or during relubrication can cause overheating of bearings that are running at medium to high speed, resulting in bearing failure. The amount of grease put in the bearing depends on the application and operating speed. For applications such as conveyor rollers and low-speed machinery with DN values (inner race ID in mm x rpm) below 50,000, the bearing can be filled to capacity. For mediumspeed applications, i.e., DN 50,000-200,000, the bearing can be filled 50-70%. For higher-speed systems, the fill is typically 30-40%. Some extreme-speed special applications have grease fills of only 10-15% (see Speed Factor for definition of DN values). Because Krytox® is heavier than hydrocarbon lubricants, its higher density must be considered when determining the fill quantity by weight.

Anticorrosion Lubricants

Additives are combined with Krytox® to enhance its ability to protect metallic surfaces from corrosion caused by moisture and oxygen.

Antiwear Greases

Krytox® greases containing anti wear additives have properties that give high specific load carrying capacity and the highest protection against wear.

Soft/Fluid Greases

These soft or fluid greases have free-flowing characteristics. They belong to NLGI penetration classes 0-000 and are often used for lubrication of sealed gear drives.

Extreme Pressure (EP) Greases These heavy-duty greases are used for high loading or slow speeds. EP greases have high load carrying capability and good characteristics under boundary and mixed friction conditions. Krytox® is a naturally good EP lubricant, but additional highpressure additives can be included in the grease

Stability

Nonflammable
Krytox® lubricants contain only carbon, oxygen, and fluorine. Because hydrogen is not present, these products are nonflammable. They will not burn or support combustion, even in 100% liquid or gaseous oxygen.

Chemically Inert
Krytox® performance lubricants are not only resistant to oxygen but are inert to virtually all chemicals used in a variety of industries. They are insoluble in most solvents but are soluble in highly fluorinated fluids in some supercritical fluids such as CO2,

Thermal and Oxidative Stability
The temperature at which thermal decomposition of Krytox® oils takes place depends on the test method used and how the point of incipient deterioration is measured. By differential thermal analysis, deterioration occurs at about 470°C (878°F) in the absence of air. The isoteniscope technique shows an initial decomposition point of 355°C (671°F) as measured by excess pressure increase. At 355°C (671°F), the decomposition rate is approximately 0.03 wt% per day. At 399°C (750°F), the decomposition rate increases to 1.3 wt% per day. When tested under nitrogen for 6 hr at 371°C (7000P), Krytox® showed no increase in neutralization number and no significant change in viscosity.

The presence of air does not substantially lower the decomposition point of Krytox® oils. However, in the presence of certain metal oxides, depolymerization of the oil can start as low as 288°C (5500P). During depolymerization, gaseous decomposition products are given off and the remaining fluid is less viscous, but no sludge or gummy deposits are formed.

In most applications, Krytox® oils have proven serviceable for long periods at continuous temperatures up to 288°C (5500P) and intermittent temperatures of 427°C (8000P).

Compatibility with Elastomers and Plastics
Krytox® is compatible with all elastomeric seal materials and engineering plastics. The limiting factor when using Krytox® with any material is the thermal stability of the elastomer or plastic.

Krytox® performance lubricants are compatible with the following common elastomers and plastics:

Thanks
 

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Hello overthere I have also a problem with these animals!!!
The a**holes who F** my 164...





So I have the same troubles with my 164 USA in Holland but now it's okay again...






















Gr Roel[/quote]
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Roel,
Hi there. The problem is you can keep replacing them all day long but they will fail again and again due to a few factors, grease hyrdocarbon type which cannot handle much heat, 230˚F max and environment! It sees lots of heat, dirt , water whatever.
Krytox will fix most of this. It can take up to 650˚F with less grease. If you check it once a year you should be good. I do not expect these to fail anymore packed with Dupont Krytox. A lot of race car teams use this stuff. It is expensive but I will be buying a lot of it to repack bearings for a good cost.
Also runs good at low temps like you see.

Just an option. I see you have a new bearing pulley, made by INA.
The bearings are not SKF which I would rather see used. Not sure where those are made, maybe in Europe but not sure. I opt for the best bearing and then repack with the best grease.

Next time... ;) Save that old Pulley and get a new SKF bearing to install in it and carry it as a spare.

Jason
 

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Hi Jason,

Thanx for the info, maybe I can send the old Pulley over to the States and you can fix it for me, is that an option??
Look great to me:):D
Then I know that it will be okay;)

greetz Roel
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Hi Jason,

Thanx for the info, maybe I can send the old Pulley over to the States and you can fix it for me, is that an option??
Look great to me:):D
Then I know that it will be okay;)

greetz Roel
That is NO problem.

I can repack a NEW SKF bearing and press it in your old pulley or you can keep the pulley and I can send you the bearing alone. Probably cheaper unless you want that NEW pulley you installed re-packed?

Either way I can do it.

I am cleaning the bearings out with a special DUPONT bearing cleaner made just to clean out hydrocarbon grease, clean it completely out and repack with the krytox.

On US models as well we tend to not tighten the serpentine belt up too tight, just enough to keep it from squeaking so that it does not put a lot of strain on the waterpump, compressor and idler pulley.

Let me know Roel!
Thanks
Jason
 
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