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123 ignition problems

557 Views 19 Replies 8 Participants Last post by  Gubi, 
Alfaspider83
9
Hi everyone! first of all! Sorry for the long post! I'm hoping someone in this group can help me! I'm really about to give up.. So I bought the 123 Bluetooth version. it came with a programmed curve that was supposed to be the correct one for my 1983 spider, i had the bosch 0237002018 whit vacuum. So I put the engine at tdc.

Rectangle Audio equipment Engineering Electrical supply Auto part

Automotive tire Motor vehicle Vehicle Bicycle fork Gas

Motor vehicle Bicycle part Automotive tire Hood Crankset

Wood Tints and shades Font Automotive tire Pattern

if someone see something I have missed in these pictures please let me know!
So then I turn the 123 counterclockwise and the led goes on.. tighten everything down.. The cars starts, but runs quit bad, backfiring, slow on the crank.
I try to set the advance to the blue dot. 7degrees? doesn't work, car runs like a piece of crap.. after like 30 attempts doing the same procedure, following the instructions I realised that the rotor doesn't really point at nr 1 sparkplug wire, it's a little bit past the number one.. I have seen a lot of people having this issue, but haven't been able to sort it out, so maybe this is not the problem, although I really think it should be pointing at number one...

So I gave the the guy ho sold me the 123 a call, and he says, no I programmed it so you are supposed to light the led at the static advanced, not tdc.. Ok, so I put the engine at the blue dot get the led to lid up, (stil not pointing towards nr1) runs even vorse...

so I take a look at the curve that was programmed... looks a litte bit strange..

Slope Font Parallel Science Engineering

So I do some homework, and after a lot of reading I have programmed this curve and vacuum

Slope Rectangle Font Parallel Pattern


Font Slope Parallel Rectangle Pattern

So I uploaded the curves, got the green led to light at TDC, the cars fires up, and runs somewhat ok,but it's really getting late, so I dicided to continue the day after, getting the engine warm and and then set the timing.
Since that evening ,the car hasn't started..
No spark. thou i knew it wasn't the problem I bought a new ignition coil, bosch blue.. redone all the wiring and earhtpoints that has to do with the ignition and 123 distributor.. still dead.. did a reset of the 123.. no difference, tried to upload a new curve, still dead..

I can connect to it, the light goes to green on the distributor and it flashes green when I crank the engine, so it's not completely dead..

one thing that happend a few time while the engine was actually running, I couldn't turn it of whit the key, it just kept going... but I have checked the + side from the ignition like 100 times, when the key is turned of, there is no power in the cable. and I only have ignition + to the coil 15 the red from 123 connected to coil +15 the black from 123 to -1 on coil, the white tacho cable to -1 on the coil. The blue cable from the 123 goes to ground.

Does anyone have a clue to what's wrong? Have I got a bad 123 distributor?

Any ideas would be helpful!!!!

Regards

Tino

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Gubi
Well, that's a weird one.

So the curve that you got pre-loaded is at least reasonable if you set the 123 up at the static mark (provided the static mark is at 6-7 BDTC or so). The second curve is the one I uploaded, and that will work if you set it up at TDC. So in both cases it doesn't seem like the curve is the issue.

The rotor pointing a bit beyond #1 I think is fine? I don't remember what mine looks like, but the spark is always going to fire BTDC anyway. Anyway, your current issue is no spark at all, apparently.

It sounds like you've got it wired up properly, but I don't get how it could have been running on if you definitely don't have power to the coil with the key off. Like, I might suspect a bad 123 unit, but even if the 123 were faulty the coil isn't going to spark with no power. So I still feel like you might have some sort of power issue there, but what it could be I dunno.

You've removed any ballast resistor and associated wiring, right? And the green/black ignition wire to coil positive just runs straight back to switched power at the fusebox? You're absolutely sure your blue wire has a good ground?
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Alfaspider83
Gubi said:
Well, that's a weird one.

So the curve that you got pre-loaded is at least reasonable if you set the 123 up at the static mark (provided the static mark is at 6-7 BDTC or so). The second curve is the one I uploaded, and that will work if you set it up at TDC. So in both cases it doesn't seem like the curve is the issue.

The rotor pointing a bit beyond #1 I think is fine? I don't remember what mine looks like, but the spark is always going to fire BTDC anyway. Anyway, your current issue is no spark at all, apparently.

It sounds like you've got it wired up properly, but I don't get how it could have been running on if you definitely don't have power to the coil with the key off. Like, I might suspect a bad 123 unit, but even if the 123 were faulty the coil isn't going to spark with no power. So I still feel like you might have some sort of power issue there, but what it could be I dunno.

You've removed any ballast resistor and associated wiring, right? And the green/black ignition wire to coil positive just runs straight back to switched power at the fusebox? You're absolutely sure your blue wire has a good ground?
Click to expand...
Hi!
Yes I copyed your curve from the BB.. Thanks! When I diseided to go for the 123 ignition I cleared out all the old wiring, I have a new green cable from the switched cable at the fusebox. I get about 13 volts, and it drops to about 11,4 when I crank. the blue cable goes to a ner grinding point dedicate for the 123 coil.

the strange thing is that the "non shutting down issue" only appeared when the timing really felt way of, when I got the car running quite ok, just backfiring it would always turn of... and it's not like it was firing due to overheated sparks or something, it was really running..

I did try rotate the distributor whit the black cable connected to the - on the coil, I know that's not something you are supposed to do and it might hurt the distributor, but I did it when Al else had failed.. and strangely, when the led lights upp, the coil sent a spark to the center ignition cord I had it loose from the distributor cap, and I could se a spark. But when a put the cap on and connects the ignition cords and plus the sparkplugs in, ground them, and crank the engine, there is no spark from any of the (new) sparkplugs. All ignition cords are also new..

I can't really understand how it supposed to work when the rotor is past the number one spark in the cap, I tried to move number one to the next position on the cap, didn't work. I need to turn the distributor clockwise, not counter clockwise to get the distributor arm to point at a sparkplug. ir turnd counterclowise it lights upp, and is is green between the sparkplug points in the cap.. don't know if I can explain that corrctly.. but the point is.. whenever the rotor points at one of the 4 cabled in the cap, the led is always of and it's always on between them... unless I turn clockwise...

I used a "tdc clock" in number one cylinder.. The P mark is correct, not Shure exactly what degree the second mark is...
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Alfa69GTV1750
Yeah, I was with until the run-on. Gotta be a wiring problem.

I put a bluetooth 123 in my 69 GTV, and have had good luck with it. Personally, put the static @ TDC and moved the timing around to get a few degrees before TDC. The reason the 123 curve starts @ 5 degrees and drops to zero before then going to 9.4 degrees is so the idle is stable. At idle speeds the ignition retards a few degrees if the engine speed drops. The advance comes back in a bit later so the engine doesn't "hunt" when revs are coming down into the idle range.

If you'd like a spreadsheet with all of the curves on the adjustable (non-bluetooth) 123 distributor. I can email it to you. My email address is in the footer of this message.
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Spider73
Hi -

I don’t know if this applies to your ‘83 but I have a ‘79 Spider that a previous owner (or their mechanic) put the oil pump back in 180* out of phase. What that means is that my #1 plug wire is plugs into the cap at 9 o’clock position instead of the normal 3 o’clock position. Did you happen to take a pic of the old distributor with the cap off before you took it out? Was the rotor pointing to the 9 o’clock position instead of the 3 o’clock position when you have cylinder #1 at TDC? Also, is the distributor key seated all the way into the oil pump slot.

- Drew
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A
Ignore the led in the distributor.

get it running by turning the distributor to wherever it will idle, then use a timing light to set the timimg.

I change the curve temporarily to have 0 degrees at idle, set it at TDC using the timing light. Then you can use the app to dial in your timing.

I’ve installed dozens of 123’s in a variety of applications and never had a problem.

Jeff
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Gubi
Huh, how far is the rotor past the #1 wire? If it's completely past it that may be a problem. You are turning the body counterclockwise to just where the light first turns on, correct? This post has a photo of where it ended up on someone else's car:

www.alfabb.com

123 distributor install question

Greetings all. I am working on installing a bluetooth version of the 123 distributor and have a couple of questions: 1. When first setting up, it says to turn the distributor counter clockwise just until a green LED light comes on. However, there are a series of small slot/windows where the LED...
www.alfabb.com www.alfabb.com

Another thought: my memory is fuzzy, but I think there have been some issues where folks got the 123 with the drive installed 90 degrees off. I don't remember the details or resolution, though. Will it spark from the coil HT lead but not at the spark plug HT leads? That could happen if the rotor were too far off, I guess.

Also, you're absolutely sure you got the keyed distributor drive in the right way? You can force it in 180 degrees out if you try (Drew just posted that above while I was typing this). Theoretically the rotor should point to the front of the car at #1 TDC but don't trust that, actually verify the way the drive is offset in the engine and make sure it matches how you install the distributor. In my GTV, for example, someone installed the oil pump 180 out so that the rotor points rear when at TDC, this is not super uncommon.
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V
You could put the original distributor back in, if the car runs fine it’s for sure a 123 thing, otherwise you have something up with your car.
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M
I recently installed a 123 Bluetooth.
I remember that it is necessary not only to turn the body counterclockwise but also to push the finger as.much counterclockwise as possible.
The finger has some play, could be the reason why it posts past cylinder 1
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Alfaspider83
6
Thanks a lot for all advices!!

So, there is a small play in the new 123 distributor, but even if I push the rotor counterclockwise, it's about 1mm of play, so it doesn't get it pointing at nr one .

This is the possition of the drive when in Tdc.


This is how the old distribututor sits when in Tdc, pointing at nr 1.


This is where the 123 ends up at TDC



The old and the new.. the old distributor arm
is pointing almost 90 degrees opposite the drive, while the 123 is parallel to the drive.

This would not be an issue, as long as I could get the led to light up pointing to any of the plugs in the cap, but I really can't.

I will try to put the old stuff back, and se how it runs, if it runs fine, then I will try just skipping the green led and have someone crank the engine while I turn the distributor and se if it starts.. But I still think I should have spark, regardless of if it's pointing at a spark at TDC or not?
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M
That the drives are different is no issue, as long as you set it properly to tdc or timing mark and check if the ignition wires go to the correct cylinders.
1-3-4-2 is the firing order.
So if you are at tdc 1 is where the pointer points to, then clockwise 3 , 4, 2
Maybe you mixed up a ignition cable?

At my car (2000 GTV) the original distributor pointed to the water pump, the 123 to the engine block.

Maybe a previous owner assembled the oil pump 180 degrees off, this shouldn't be an issue as long as the firing order is correct, means ignition wires are in the correct order plugged to the distributor cap.

It could also be that you are 180 out with the 123, could you really completely push it into the oil pump drive?
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Gubi
Found it: read the first post in this thread about the 123 drive being ~20 degrees off. That may be your problem? This is definitely not common, though.

www.alfabb.com

123Ignition Revisited

I know that this is a dead horse, but I have something to add which was not noted in previous posts. I recently bought the 123 Distributor. Now that it's finally working, I'd say that I'm very pleased. The general consensus seems to be more positive than negative. I have three points of...
www.alfabb.com www.alfabb.com
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M
Gubi said:
Found it: read the first post in this thread about the 123 drive being ~20 degrees off. That may be your problem? This is definitely not common, though.

www.alfabb.com

123Ignition Revisited

I know that this is a dead horse, but I have something to add which was not noted in previous posts. I recently bought the 123 Distributor. Now that it's finally working, I'd say that I'm very pleased. The general consensus seems to be more positive than negative. I have three points of...
www.alfabb.com www.alfabb.com
Click to expand...
Should be no issue if the 123 (appearance of the Led) is set to TDC? and the ignition wires are connected correctly?
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Lokki
I would like to propose a simple check (you may have already done this): check to make sure your plug wires are actually going to the correct plug based on where the distributor points to # 1, and not where #1 should be.

I have marelli-plex on my car and when I replaced the plug wires (I KNEW where everything went so I just popped them off without really paying attention) and when I put the new wires on the engine ran like all the bowling balls in hell were inside. I checked and the wires were in the correct arrangement except that like yours (apparently) my distributor was actually set up 90° out. It took me freaking forever to figure it out, and it sure sounds like your problem. Worth a look anyhow.
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Gubi
mechtild said:
Should be no issue if the 123 (appearance of the Led) is set to TDC? and the ignition wires are connected correctly?
Click to expand...
If it's off by 90 or 180 degrees then it's no issue provided you put the plug wires in the right place. If it's off by like 45 degrees it would be a problem, because the rotor would be too far from any of the wires. The latter is what appears to have happened in that other thread.

Anyway, Tino, I mocked up your photos to show where the plug wires should be. If these are both taken at TDC and with proper distributor body location (i.e., the 123 has been turned counterclockwise until the LED just lights) then everything looks mostly right?

The 123 rotor is 90-ish degrees different from the Bosch, but the rotor is pointing forward at TDC and it's pointing to one of the plug wires. So as long as you put the plug wires in the right places (which, as Lokki pointed out, will be different than where they are with your Bosch) then I don't think you have a physical problem with the distributor or drive piece?

(Note: this all assumes I got the mockup right, and it's rather early and I haven't had my coffee yet so double check that)
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M
Gubi said:
If it's off by 90 or 180 degrees then it's no issue provided you put the plug wires in the right place. If it's off by like 45 degrees it would be a problem, because the rotor would be too far from any of the wires. The latter is what appears to have happened in that other thread.

]
Click to expand...
For curiosity: if thats the case the green light should not come on, right?
As this has to be tied to the #1 cyl position of the dizzy cap, which is tied by the groove in the dizzy housing so it has a fixed position?
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Gubi
mechtild said:
For curiosity: if thats the case the green light should not come on, right?
As this has to be tied to the #1 cyl position of the dizzy cap, which is tied by the groove in the dizzy housing so it has a fixed position?
Click to expand...
You could be right? In thinking about it I think it would depend on how the light is triggered.

I'd need to really look at the innards of the 123 and think about it because my brain is failing me right now. The experience of that guy in the other thread suggests it matters, though, since he couldn't get it to work right until he moved the angle of the rotor relative to the drive.

Regardless, assuming the distributors in the photos Tino posted were timed right, and assuming I did my photoshop analysis right (big assumption on a Monday!) then the drive position is probably not the issue here, I think?
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M
I heard that a lot of the 123s werre failing, mostly when new.
Don't know if this is still true with recent productions so I'd suggest:
Check if the ignition wires are correct with firing order 1342

If they are, I'd try to mount the old Distributor again to rule out a malfunctioning 123
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Spider73
mechtild said:
For curiosity: if thats the case the green light should not come on, right?
As this has to be tied to the #1 cyl position of the dizzy cap, which is tied by the groove in the dizzy housing so it has a fixed position?
Click to expand...
From experience the green light will still come on with the oil pump at 180* out. All you are doing by rotating the 123 distributor at this point is syncing it to the motor with cylinder #1 at TDC. During this step you are only rotating the housing not the 123 drive shaft. If you are able to easily rotate the driveshaft with the rotor pointing toward the front of the car then the distributor is not seated properly. That's a big clue that your oil pump was not installed correctly. I don't know what if any long term affects you might encounter having your oil pump 90* or 180* out will have on the motor. That's probably a whole new thread.

- Drew
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Gubi
Spider73 said:
I don't know what if any long term affects you might encounter having your oil pump 90* or 180* out will have on the motor
Click to expand...
It doesn't cause any problems provided you put the plug wires in the correct places and also match the distributor drive offset direction to the oil pump drive offset direction.

I you try, you can jam the distributor in with the key 180 degrees reversed and it'll run for a bit, but that will eventually break the oil pump.
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