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Discussion Starter #1
Hello from NZ,

Right now I have a foot on either side of the fence and some welcome informed knowledge from members might be just what I need to see wood for the trees. Here is the conundrum....

I've been racing a '73 GTV for about 12 years now, but the time has come to get a long term '67 GT step nose race car project finished and on the track. So I'm reluctantly selling my '73 GTV as a rolling chassis in order to fast-track the GT (If anyone is interested in the GTV BTW, please send me a PM).

HOWEVER, that's not the point of this post. The new '67 GT race car has a lot of provence in this country. I've admired it on the track long long before it came into my hands. So for me, this is potentially the perfect 105 race car and quite possibly my last. The dilemma is to build a WIDE BODY car or leave it standard. And there is more to it than mere aesthetics. The car was involved in a big frontal crash before I owned it. Therefore there is a lot of work to be done on front panels and a wide body conversion would actually make this a LITTLE bit easier.

HOWEVER it's more a question of performance. The engine going in is a highly tuned single spark motor producing about 200 hp at the wheels. A wide body with the appropriate 8x15 wheels means more frontal area and more rolling resistance - but possibly more lateral traction in corners. Conversely, a standard body is potentially slipperier and its 7x15 (or 14) wheels might match the car's output better - and handling may be more progressive.

I've never driven a wide body 105 with wide wheels so I'm only speculating.

Does anyone have any thoughts in this dept?

Thanks!

Greg
 

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Ciao Greg,

I would suggest that you get in contact with Max Banks at Alfaholics for some feedback on both models.
Just be very sure what you want from the car in the long term.

With 200hp I'd leave it in standard appearance with 7x15's as these car are perfectly balance in performance in this spec.

Regards
Sergio
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks Sergio,

Yes, I was actually going to get in touch with Max for his advice on the matter. The car does have quite a bit of Alfaholics kit in it already.

And I tend to agree with you about the balance of the car in std body spec. The car I've been racing for the last decade is perfectly balanced on the track - incredible feedback and progressive handling. And this car is std bodywork with only 6 x 14 rubber on the track.

Tire technology has come a long way since the days of the GTAm. In other words, with today's tires, we can achieve the same (or better) grip with a much smaller contact patch than what they could in the late 1960's.

Thanks again, Greg.
 

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I have a bone stock February 64 production sprint GT I have gone through hell keeping it bone stock, with the exception of the suspension, and the 7X 15 gta superleggera wheels with 35 mm and 5 mm offsets for the front axles,will fit any competition tyre you can drive on (unless you are Quick Vic Elford's kid) if you have dunlop brakes the 35 mm offsets are perfect, if the car has provenance as you mention .....don't paint a mustache on the Mona Lisa ...just my opinion...........also replaced the steering rods with the shorter GTA units, I have a ZF steering box which will withstand the additional g load....if you have a Burman may want to upgrade to the billet machined unit..
 

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The existing tire options are so much better than what they had back in the day, with this you do not need more than 205 width tires. So, in this regards, I don't think that a wide vehicle will give you any advantage. The narrow car with the correct suspension and set up should be plenty good and provide enough lateral grip.

I would restore the car to how it was raced, jeep the history and the value.

Good luck and share the restoration with us.
 
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The existing tire options are so much better than what they had back in the day, with this you do not need more than 205 width tires. So, in this regards, I don't think that a wide vehicle will give you any advantage. The narrow car with the correct suspension and set up should be plenty good and provide enough lateral grip.

I would restore the car to how it was raced, jeep the history and the value.

Good luck and share the restoration with us.
205 might require wheel well mod 195 55 15 no issues.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for all the learned advice - Tom in particular for offset details (and your Mona Lisa analogy!).

I'm thinking the same at this point. The only issue may be in the rear with getting the track out a little wider - since this car has the deeper/lower wheel arches than subsequent models. But there is also the option of the little bubble flairs if necessary.

I'll be back with updates as progress happens!
 

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Thanks for all the learned advice - Tom in particular for offset details (and your Mona Lisa analogy!).

I'm thinking the same at this point. The only issue may be in the rear with getting the track out a little wider - since this car has the deeper/lower wheel arches than subsequent models. But there is also the option of the little bubble flairs if necessary.

I'll be back with updates as progress happens!
With all the very improved tyre compounds, as an option tracking wider in the rear will not yield noticeable results. I would suggest that concentrate more on steering radius and contact patch....shocks springs and this makes a kick *** difference the way the car turns in.... BTW if you have rear sway bar ...loose it..
https://www.alfaholics.com/race-parts/105-series/suspension/alfaholics-quick-steering-arms-105/
 

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FWIW I was fortunate enough to passenger around Goodwood (Thanks Rob!) in a wide-body GTam replica used for Sprints at the same time as a lightweight GTA replica narrow-body. Both cars with high-spec suspension, modern sticky track-day tyres and highly skilled drivers.

There didn't appear to be much difference in overall grip between the cars at any point on the circuit, although the wide-body car had an extra 1inch rim width (8x15 GTam versus 7x15 GTA alloys). Braking efficiency from a grip point of view looked pretty similar too.

Although mine is a wide-body GTA junior rep - purely for looks - it suits me fine. With a more or less standard motor and lots of rubber on the road, it makes a very safe and grippy track-day car for an aging hooligan like me!

I would say, if yours has a history as a narrow bodied car, much better to keep it that way really... whatever, I'm sure it will give you endless enjoyment!

Cheers, Simon
 

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original gtam rear wheels were 9inchs. roughly 235-245 width tires... lots of rubber on the road. wider track along with more grip with sliding block the lower roll center i would expect it to have much more grip. the problem seems like they were compromised with the standard front suspension geometry of the 105
 

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The new '67 GT race car has a lot of provence in this country.
I've been out of the NZ (classic?) racing scene for a long time but curious on which car this is. The only 105 series that I would consider having racing provence is the ex-Tony Roberts GTV being an ex-Aucklander but if my memory is correct that was not a step-nose which I assume a '67 is.

Is your car a south island car? No GTV raced in anything serious in New Zealand, just mucked around in classic racing. Okay I do remember seeing one race in real racing, can't remember the class, but it was destroyed by v8's, etc. and never saw it again. I also remember seeing what appears to be a racing shell in a wreckers yard, but can't remember where now and also if this was not just a dream ... :surprise:
Pete
 

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original gtam rear wheels were 9inchs. roughly 235-245 width tires... lots of rubber on the road. wider track along with more grip with sliding block the lower roll center i would expect it to have much more grip. the problem seems like they were compromised with the standard front suspension geometry of the 105
The FIA papered cars had to run the dunlop brakes in the 64-65 cars...I Have them on my 64 and they require tuning every 500 miles or so... :crying2:
 

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Richard Jemison
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Utilizing width.

Just sticking wider offset rims to fill up space is a handling impairment. If you are going to widen "track" it has to be done geometrically correct. In the ~60s this was only wheel width effort. However with today`s technical information lots to gain with widening the track.
See the suspension modifications to widen track in the thread on my Duetto and "Montreal Coupe".

Post 106 & !07 at:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/motorsports/146464-old-alfa-racer-pics-so-west-div-12.html
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I've been out of the NZ (classic?) racing scene for a long time but curious on which car this is. The only 105 series that I would consider having racing provence is the ex-Tony Roberts GTV being an ex-Aucklander but if my memory is correct that was not a step-nose which I assume a '67 is.

Is your car a south island car? No GTV raced in anything serious in New Zealand, just mucked around in classic racing. Okay I do remember seeing one race in real racing, can't remember the class, but it was destroyed by v8's, etc. and never saw it again. I also remember seeing what appears to be a racing shell in a wreckers yard, but can't remember where now and also if this was not just a dream ... :surprise:
Pete
Hey Pete,

Thanks for your local insights. Provenance is surely relative to the culture from which it's derived. As you say, the Alfa presence in saloon racing in NZ was pretty marginal - that's PRE classic racing I'm talking about - when these cars weren't classics. To my knowledge the ONLY 105 Alfa ever raced from new was affectionately remembered as the "Coppertone Car" (being sponsored at the time by the Coppertone brand). It was a 60's step-nose car and seriously modified (even in wheelbase). This eventually found its way into the hands of Tony Roberts by which time the front end had been replaced (I assume from accident damage) from a later GTV - which is why you'd remember it looking like a later model. I know the whereabouts of this car, and one day I hope the owner will bring it out for a much needed thrashing again!

But you're right, most other 105 Alfa's have only joined the fields in classic racing - although I would argue that it gets as serious as any other form of motorsport (we also run an exclusively all-Alfa series here in NZ which accommodates both old and new models). I'm intrigued about the car you saw racing - I'm assuming it was the Coppertone car. And I'm even more intrigued about the race car you saw in the wrecker's - that's myth-inspiring stuff! Do let me know if you can shed any light on that!

And as for my car - well I have two with long racing histories by NZ standards, longer than most other 105's I know of. Both North Island cars. One is a '73 GTV (which is for sale in the Alfa BB for sale section if anyone's interested). But the car in question is known locally as "The Black Adder", a step front with racing records dating back to the eighties (including a Targa or two). It's been in a few serious accidents and like the Coppertone car, the step-nose has been replaced with a later 'smooth front'. But since I'm in the process of restoring it to it's original state, I was considering whether to go wide body or not (this is my one chance). My guts (and everyone else on this forum) are telling me to keep it original...
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Just sticking wider offset rims to fill up space is a handling impairment. If you are going to widen "track" it has to be done geometrically correct. In the ~60s this was only wheel width effort. However with today`s technical information lots to gain with widening the track.
See the suspension modifications to widen track in the thread on my Duetto and "Montreal Coupe".

Woah Richard, that's some brilliant and serious development work you have going on there (just looked at your website). Thanks for the tips on the front end mods - makes a lot of sense too. And yes, I'm rethinking the entire suspension set-up from what I was running on the last car.

(That's a MASSIVE and information-rich thread you started BTW! Will pick through it when I have a spare day ..or two!)

In NZ we're not as strictly bound by the likes of FIA regs (as in Europe) - but there's certainly rigorous schedules in place to maintain their classic integrity (whilst still accommodating the discerning use of some modern tech).
 

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Hey Pete,

Thanks for your local insights. Provenance is surely relative to the culture from which it's derived. As you say, the Alfa presence in saloon racing in NZ was pretty marginal - that's PRE classic racing I'm talking about - when these cars weren't classics. To my knowledge the ONLY 105 Alfa ever raced from new was affectionately remembered as the "Coppertone Car" (being sponsored at the time by the Coppertone brand). It was a 60's step-nose car and seriously modified (even in wheelbase). This eventually found its way into the hands of Tony Roberts by which time the front end had been replaced (I assume from accident damage) from a later GTV - which is why you'd remember it looking like a later model. I know the whereabouts of this car, and one day I hope the owner will bring it out for a much needed thrashing again!
I remember Tony's car as white with a green GTA style stripe. It was the quickest GTV at the time, when I used be heavily involved in the Auckland AROC racing my '76 Sud Ti and finally a Sud powered Sylva Striker Mk4. The last I saw this car it was sold to a young man and I remember him losing the championship he was chasing due to it breaking it's bellhousing in the last round. Wonderful car and yes would be a great car to own and exercise.
But you're right, most other 105 Alfa's have only joined the fields in classic racing - although I would argue that it gets as serious as any other form of motorsport (we also run an exclusively all-Alfa series here in NZ which accommodates both old and new models).
Yes I am aware of the Trofeo series. Heck I think I was involved at the beginning of it, and yes my Sud was really a race car that happened to race in classic meetings. Nowadays I've noticed that they have moved on considerably and now have full cages and spoilers, etc. This is when I removed myself from classic racing and built a kit/club car as I woke up to what I was doing to my poor Sud and got disillusioned with what we were all doing to our once cherished cars.
I'm intrigued about the car you saw racing - I'm assuming it was the Coppertone car.
It is a very long time ago. I would have been a teenager (?). It was at Pukekohe where I used to do a lot of flag marshalling, yes as a young teenager, as my father was always involved. We used to always do a walk around the pits. The only thing I remember was the longer inlet manifold and the inner guard having to be modified to clear the carbs. I think it was white??
And I'm even more intrigued about the race car you saw in the wrecker's - that's myth-inspiring stuff! Do let me know if you can shed any light on that!
I think my father, brother-inlaw and I went for a walk when at a relatives wedding and came across a wreckers yard. This GTV shell was up on top of other shells. I'll see if my father and brother-inlaw have similar memories but I'm the only Alfista :)
And as for my car - well I have two with long racing histories by NZ standards, longer than most other 105's I know of. Both North Island cars. One is a '73 GTV (which is for sale in the Alfa BB for sale section if anyone's interested). But the car in question is known locally as "The Black Adder", a step front with racing records dating back to the eighties (including a Targa or two). It's been in a few serious accidents and like the Coppertone car, the step-nose has been replaced with a later 'smooth front'. But since I'm in the process of restoring it to it's original state, I was considering whether to go wide body or not (this is my one chance). My guts (and everyone else on this forum) are telling me to keep it original...
Yes my vote would be to a previous state that you most admire, and yes I prefer the narrow look with if necessary the little rear wheel arch extensions.

I was racing my Sud around 30 years ago which makes it '87, and definitely remember Mike Johns starting the Targas, and likely I have seen this car but I do not remember the Black Adder term. Was it a Wellington car? Back then classic racing in NZ was really good with huge grids of Alfas and other interesting cars. Unfortunately as we wanted to go faster a lot of cool cars left the grids and many bought cheaper cars that could be made fast, ie. Ford Escorts/Cortinas and Vauxhall Vivas, etc. I'm guilty of this too as I bought the Sud as I did not want to race my GTV or ruin another important Alfa. Sorry Sud enthusiasts but that is the truth. I grew to like and respect the car but in hindsight I should have bought an Alfetta GTV as no matter how good a Sud is, getting off the start line means you loose out before the first corner.

Looking forward to following your rebuild.
Pete
 

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First I am curious how you think to reach 200HP at the wheels with a 2 liter engine (or even a overbored one..)
It's easy as pie with a bit of boost. The GTA-SA made more than that with stone age forced induction technology.
 

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The engine going in is a highly tuned single spark motor producing about 200 hp at the wheels.
Veep, note Greg said about 200hp at the wheels.

Based on a 15% driveline loss, that would be 230hp at the flywheel. There are many people in New Zealand that can build really strong and powerful Nord engines, so it would not surprise me that somebody has got around 220hp or more by now as I've seen dyno results for a 212hp Nord engine 25 years ago. The same person did the machine/clever work for my Sud race engine.

But yeah 230hp ... unlikely.
Pete
 
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