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Discussion Starter #1
purchased a 1300 from a 72? Giulia Super to put in my 62 Giulietta Spider. Oil Pan is slightly different.
Is it acceptable practice to modify the cast alu sump from the 101 engine to replace the Bat Wing sump on the 105 motor.
Looks like holes need to be drilled or studs need to pulled out of the block.
Any other known issues besides the Oil filter canister, which is detailed on other forums?
I was told the engine would fit, motor mounts bolt up and flywheel/bellhousing fit.
Appreciate all comments, but please, no need to tell me I should just put the original back in...I think I know that would be best if possible.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Should have said, Oil Pan mounting is slightly different, two additional studs near the rear main, slight curve for clearance of oil canister....
 

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Hi racerbuff and all,

Long time ago I heard that an Alfetta pan could be used, together with the Alfetta oil pump???
I'm not sure, what does the group thinks?

Thierry
 

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Long time ago I heard that an Alfetta pan could be used, together with the Alfetta oil pump??? I'm not sure, what does the group thinks?
You can use an Alfetta pan & pump in a 750/101 with a little cutting/grinding. But racerbuff indicates that he has a 101 pan, so that would be simpler. I think he will need to use a 101 oil pump (or at least the pick-up) to be compatible with the 101 pan [please check me on this].

racerbuff said:
Oil Pan mounting is slightly different, two additional studs near the rear main
Is it that the 105 block has the studs, but the 101 pan lacks the holes to accept them? If so, then sure, you could drill the extra holes in the 101 pan. A fresh gasket will indicate their location. I assume Alfa added these studs to reduce oil leakage. But you could also roll the dice on oil leakage and just leave them off - your 101 engine probably worked OK without them.

, slight curve for clearance of oil canister....
Is the issue that the 105 1300 block has a provision for the canister oil filter, but it came with the type of canister that sits away from the block? If so you can bolt on a Giulietta-style oil canister if you cut a semi-circular clearance notch in the 105 block. You can use the 101 pan as a template. Or is the issue that the 105 1300 block is late enough to have a spin-on filter on the front cover and no oil filter provision on the block? Then you'd need a remote filter, as I think a spin-on would interfere with the Giulietta steering box.
 

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Jay summed that one up better than I could, about all I could add is that if you use an Alfetta pan you will need to grind a bit away at the back of the pan to clear the rear main area

Ciao
Greig
 

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Note the Alfetta pan will hang lower than any stock Giulietta sumps.
 

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Hi All,

As said before, I can't speak for the use of the Alfetta sump here, I never tried it.

About the 105 oil pump, you are correct Jay,

The normal 105 oil pump won't fit in the 101 aluminium oil sump, the oil trumpet is to deep so you can't close the gap between engine block and that sump. I know this from my own experience.

So I changed tactics, I searched for, and used the earlier ( first model) 105 oil pump on my 101 Giulietta TI engine in combination with the 101 aluminium oil sump.
It requested a little modification of the suction head of the pump (trumpet).

Therefore I removed carefully the strainer of the oil trumpet, which went easily as it is just folded over the trumpet, and, with trial and error, I filed about 3 to 8 mm aluminium (I can't remember the exact amount) from the lowest edge from the trumpet, there where it touched the sump, untill I could close the gap between engine block and the sump with that 105 oil pump in place . ( ... a trial and error without the sump gasket gave me certainty that when finally mounted with the gasket, there was enough space for putting the strainer back on his place. )
The only difference with the original 101 oil pump set up is that in my 101 engine the oil is sucked up more in the front of the sump.
This combination works perfect for more than 10 years yet and over 60000 kilometers since the rebuilt, that car drove me everywhere and in any circumstance, including some racing, hill climbing and long distance trajectories ...

Three important remarks:

1) Be sure that no filing can enter the pump trumpet, so close the entrance of the trumpet hermetically when filing ! I don't have to tell what would happen when some filing enters the pump ...

2) I guess, you can only use the very earliest 105 oil pump ( Alfa 105.14.06.013.00), as this is the one for the 18 mm deep 105 carter plates. Later pumps ( Alfa 105.14.06.013.01) are for 28 mm deep carters, that extra centimeter can't be filed away without deforming the trumpet mouth and would require modification of the strainer.

3) Don't forget that the strainer has to be replaced on the suction head before closing the sump definitely.

Be aware that this all was done on a 101 engine, I don't know if it is the same with 105 engines.

Thierry
 

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Discussion Starter #8
You can use an Alfetta pan & pump in a 750/101 with a little cutting/grinding. But racerbuff indicates that he has a 101 pan, so that would be simpler. I think he will need to use a 101 oil pump (or at least the pick-up) to be compatible with the 101 pan [please check me on this].



Is it that the 105 block has the studs, but the 101 pan lacks the holes to accept them? If so, then sure, you could drill the extra holes in the 101 pan. A fresh gasket will indicate their location. I assume Alfa added these studs to reduce oil leakage. But you could also roll the dice on oil leakage and just leave them off - your 101 engine probably worked OK without them.



Is the issue that the 105 1300 block has a provision for the canister oil filter, but it came with the type of canister that sits away from the block? If so you can bolt on a Giulietta-style oil canister if you cut a semi-circular clearance notch in the 105 block. You can use the 101 pan as a template. Or is the issue that the 105 1300 block is late enough to have a spin-on filter on the front cover and no oil filter provision on the block? Then you'd need a remote filter, as I think a spin-on would interfere with the Giulietta steering box.
Thanks for all the comments, My 105 Block is an early version with the canister, so I will be trying to use a 101 filter/canister by grinding the block, this seems within my capabilities and comfort zone as apparently several have done this already.
My biggest concern is the extra studs near the rear main, but as stated the 101 lived without them, so I will probably go that route.
Problem with drilling new holes in the 101 cast alu pan, there are reliefs cast into the pan at precisely the location of the extra studs, these reliefs affect the usable flange area and pretty sure getting nuts/washers or even allen head bolts will be difficult.

Also trying to decide if the windage tray/oil scraper is neccessay, there wasn't one in the 105, so maybe no need in the conversion, any thoughts out there?
 

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Thanks for all the comments, My 105 Block is an early version with the canister, so I will be trying to use a 101 filter/canister by grinding the block, this seems within my capabilities and comfort zone as apparently several have done this already.
My biggest concern is the extra studs near the rear main, but as stated the 101 lived without them, so I will probably go that route.
Problem with drilling new holes in the 101 cast alu pan, there are reliefs cast into the pan at precisely the location of the extra studs, these reliefs affect the usable flange area and pretty sure getting nuts/washers or even allen head bolts will be difficult.

Also trying to decide if the windage tray/oil scraper is neccessay, there wasn't one in the 105, so maybe no need in the conversion, any thoughts out there?
The 750/101 Veloces had a 1/4" spacer between the oil filter housing and the block to clear the wider Veloce oil pan. Perhaps a thicker spacer will allow for less grinding on the block.

Jim
San Antonio, TX
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Hi All,

As said before, I can't speak for the use of the Alfetta sump here, I never tried it.

About the 105 oil pump, you are correct Jay,

The normal 105 oil pump won't fit in the 101 aluminium oil sump, the oil trumpet is to deep so you can't close the gap between engine block and that sump. I know this from my own experience.

So I changed tactics, I searched for, and used the earlier ( first model) 105 oil pump on my 101 Giulietta TI engine in combination with the 101 aluminium oil sump.
It requested a little modification of the suction head of the pump (trumpet).

Therefore I removed carefully the strainer of the oil trumpet, which went easily as it is just folded over the trumpet, and, with trial and error, I filed about 3 to 8 mm aluminium (I can't remember the exact amount) from the lowest edge from the trumpet, there where it touched the sump, untill I could close the gap between engine block and the sump with that 105 oil pump in place . ( ... a trial and error without the sump gasket gave me certainty that when finally mounted with the gasket, there was enough space for putting the strainer back on his place. )
The only difference with the original 101 oil pump set up is that in my 101 engine the oil is sucked up more in the front of the sump.
This combination works perfect for more than 10 years yet and over 60000 kilometers since the rebuilt, that car drove me everywhere and in any circumstance, including some racing, hill climbing and long distance trajectories ...

Three important remarks:

1) Be sure that no filing can enter the pump trumpet, so close the entrance of the trumpet hermetically when filing ! I don't have to tell what would happen when some filing enters the pump ...

2) I guess, you can only use the very earliest 105 oil pump ( Alfa 105.14.06.013.00), as this is the one for the 18 mm deep 105 carter plates. Later pumps ( Alfa 105.14.06.013.01) are for 28 mm deep carters, that extra centimeter can't be filed away without deforming the trumpet mouth and would require modification of the strainer.

3) Don't forget that the strainer has to be replaced on the suction head before closing the sump definitely.

Be aware that this all was done on a 101 engine, I don't know if it is the same with 105 engines.

Thierry
Thierry, Did you use a the 101 Windage Tray as I assume there was no interference issues with this mod?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The 750/101 Veloces had a 1/4" spacer between the oil filter housing and the block to clear the wider Veloce oil pan. Perhaps a thicker spacer will allow for less grinding on the block.

Jim
San Antonio, TX
Jim, Thanks for the idea, sounds like something to consider, I will research the veloce motor mount/engine angle and how that affects the oil canister clearance too. Still thinking grinding the block to 101 shape sounds easiest.
Now if I can locate the Oil Filter Canister mount....seems to MIA.....
 

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You need the 750/101 Giulietta canister mounting - the 105 mounting has a 'web' between the mounting plate and the filter head and this puts it too close to the chassis rails. Yes the Veloce's had the 1/4" aluminium spacer - be careful of making this too thick as you end up with mounting bolts that are too short.

We have a 105 Series 1300 in Dad's '57 Spider and a 105 Series 1600 in my '60 Spider, (both correct engines are on the shelf), to fit the 105 blocks I filed the lower block web away to fit the canister, I basically fitted the oil pan and scribed a line following the cutout in the pan, then filed away everything outside the scribe line. Job done and while the resultant web is quite thin at that point, the gasket does seal and the engines are oil tight there.

Ciao
Greig
 

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Discussion Starter #13
You need the 750/101 Giulietta canister mounting - the 105 mounting has a 'web' between the mounting plate and the filter head and this puts it too close to the chassis rails. Yes the Veloce's had the 1/4" aluminium spacer - be careful of making this too thick as you end up with mounting bolts that are too short.

We have a 105 Series 1300 in Dad's '57 Spider and a 105 Series 1600 in my '60 Spider, (both correct engines are on the shelf), to fit the 105 blocks I filed the lower block web away to fit the canister, I basically fitted the oil pan and scribed a line following the cutout in the pan, then filed away everything outside the scribe line. Job done and while the resultant web is quite thin at that point, the gasket does seal and the engines are oil tight there.

Ciao
Greig
Greig,

Thanks again for your time and consideration, just wanted to ask, since you have done several, what was your solution for the miss-match studs at the rear main? Leave the studs out or drill holes in the Pan? I still think drilling would be difficult without welding and machining to reinforce that area of the pan. Your thoughts?

Best regards,
Buff
 

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Hi racerbuff and all,

If I remember well I could mount the 101 windage tray without any problem.
By entering ' windage tray ' in the alfaBB searching machine, you 'll find relevant threads about it.


1614587


With some spare parts I tried to reconstruct here the setup as it is in my 101 engine. (see post # 7)
The pictures show how the early 105 oil pump is mounted, in this actual setup a part of the trumpet is touching the sump, just like I experienced it 10 years ago.
In that zone of the trumpet, some aluminium material was filed away with trial and error untill I could close easily the gap between sump and engine block.

The pink coloured wooden spacers are 2 mm thick each. Due to a slight angle between trumpet and sump, you can see two spacers at the rear of the trumpet leaving there a gap of about 4 mm, more than enough to suck up the oil.

For approximating the real situation, I placed a piece of gasket between the pump base and the front cover, noticeable on the pictures .
For the same purpose, I placed 2mm wooden spacers under that front cover, the real sump gasket is a little thinner I guess.

1614588


1614589


1614590



The biggest issue nowadays will be to find the early 105 oil pump as in the past, many of them were thrown away because they became useless when the deeper sumps were introduced and became the standard sump with of course the longer 105 oil pump.

If you have the 101 alu sump, can't you use the original 101 oil pump and trumpet ?

About the extra holes, I can't compare the holes and studs between 105 engine and 101 sump but if you can use all the holes there are on the 101 sump, I personally would not start drilling and ' destroying ' a nice original 101 sump.
Just my opinion.

Rgds

Thierry
 

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Discussion Starter #15
purchased a 1300 from a 72? Giulia Super to put in my 62 Giulietta Spider. Oil Pan is slightly different.
Is it acceptable practice to modify the cast alu sump from the 101 engine to replace the Bat Wing sump on the 105 motor.
Looks like holes need to be drilled or studs need to pulled out of the block.
Any other known issues besides the Oil filter canister, which is detailed on other forums?
I was told the engine would fit, motor mounts bolt up and flywheel/bellhousing fit.
Appreciate all comments, but please, no need to tell me I should just put the original back in...I think I know that would be best if possible.
New problem just surfaced:
I tried mounting the 101 oil filter to the 105 Block. Turns out this will not bolt up as the bolt centers are way different.
Approx. 54mm for the 105 block and maybe 41mm for the 101 Block.
1614623


Would like to hear if this is a new, never seen before or does someone know of a solution?

Thanks, much appreciate all the support.

Buff
 

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Want an easy solution or an original looking solution? OEM looking requires some fabrication, easy involves a remote oil filter and take off block.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Gordon, when starting this discussion I was hoping for the more original solution, but that was when I thought it was a bolt on swap. I do have some racing background so understand the remote filters we use on dry sump systems and was just trying to avoid going that direction. This is a very nice stock Normale and do not want SS braided lines and red/blue anodized fittings messing up the engine bay.
That said I no longer have access to a good machinist or Tig welder, so might start looking at a way to hide a remote filter assembly.
Di you have a good resource for the correct take off block?

Thanks, Buff
1614624
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Hi racerbuff and all,

If I remember well I could mount the 101 windage tray without any problem.
By entering ' windage tray ' in the alfaBB searching machine, you 'll find relevant threads about it.


View attachment 1614587

With some spare parts I tried to reconstruct here the setup as it is in my 101 engine. (see post # 7)
The pictures show how the early 105 oil pump is mounted, in this actual setup a part of the trumpet is touching the sump, just like I experienced it 10 years ago.
In that zone of the trumpet, some aluminium material was filed away with trial and error untill I could close easily the gap between sump and engine block.

The pink coloured wooden spacers are 2 mm thick each. Due to a slight angle between trumpet and sump, you can see two spacers at the rear of the trumpet leaving there a gap of about 4 mm, more than enough to suck up the oil.

For approximating the real situation, I placed a piece of gasket between the pump base and the front cover, noticeable on the pictures .
For the same purpose, I placed 2mm wooden spacers under that front cover, the real sump gasket is a little thinner I guess.

View attachment 1614588

View attachment 1614589

View attachment 1614590


The biggest issue nowadays will be to find the early 105 oil pump as in the past, many of them were thrown away because they became useless when the deeper sumps were introduced and became the standard sump with of course the longer 105 oil pump.

If you have the 101 alu sump, can't you use the original 101 oil pump and trumpet ?

About the extra holes, I can't compare the holes and studs between 105 engine and 101 sump but if you can use all the holes there are on the 101 sump, I personally would not start drilling and ' destroying ' a nice original 101 sump.
Just my opinion.

Rgds

Thierry
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thierry,
Did not want to get too far along before I forgot to thank you for your response. I do appreciate your attention to detail and will now need to decide whether to stay with the 105 pump in the 101 sump, or use the 101 pump. Either way will work, so all should is good. Well as soon as I get past the Oil filter issue.....

Best regards,
Buff
 

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As a pump builder, the ideal pump would be a 9 tooth 1600 Veloce variant for either the Veloce cast or 1600 normal one piece cast sump. That way the pick-up is located correctly with the pump for "as-original" operation.
As a race fabricator, I would find it pretty simple to plug the incorrect stud holes in an original oil filter cartridge top, and re-drill for the 105 block's stud spacing, assuming the block gallery holes matched the filter base. This creates the stock appearance you would like to maintain.
 
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