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Discussion Starter #1
Last week I spent 10 hours replacing the starter on the 164B. I'm getting much faster...once it took me 5 days :( I don't work fast, and if I did this more frequently (which I'm glad I don't) I could probably shave another 1-2 hours off the time.

Today, I finally got rid of that adjustable radiator fan switch someone put on. I'm back to the original in the radiator switch. The low speed resistor is also missing and bypassed, but at least the fan comes on now. The adjustable switch was so unreliable, it had to go.
 

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Starter bolt blues

Last week I spent 10 hours replacing the starter on the 164B. I'm getting much faster...once it took me 5 days :( I don't work fast, and if I did this more frequently (which I'm glad I don't) I could probably shave another 1-2 hours off the time.
Those 12v starters are a real fun trip to change out but wait until you try one on a 24v. Now that is really a lot of fun.
 

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The last 164 engine I installed, I left the A/T harness on an engine which had been refitted with a 5-speed transmission. All nicely hooked up to the starter and captured behind the exh. man. Had to change it in place, but it wasn't that gruesome after I figured how to do it. Maybe this is relevant to starter in-place swaps (which I hope I never have to do, BTW).

Steve also put up a set of pics with a lowered subframe to get access to the steering rack (as I vaguely recall). That might be helpful, too.

In our case, from outside the passenger side of the car I could see the stud on the starter solenoid and reach it with a long set of 3/8" ratchet extensions. Only a minor problem to remove the nut. The main switch connection was easy just to reach up around the exhaust and disconnect. I only had to disconnect the old harness, snake the new one down from the transmission end, and reconnect it. It worked for me. If one were R&Ring the starter, then one would only have the three bolts on the starter to remove and pull the starter out. Is this impossible (says he who has never done it) from behind the manifold? I've heard that all three bolts can be accessed with long extensions like this.

Just musing.

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I used the long extension from the right wheel well. Removed the false fire wall to access the manifold nuts/studs. Also used Steve's trick of a tie wrap to hold the upper bolt complete with socket and extension when I installed the starter.
 

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I used the long extension from the right wheel well. Removed the false fire wall to access the manifold nuts/studs. Also used Steve's trick of a tie wrap to hold the upper bolt complete with socket and extension when I installed the starter.
I welded a 13mm socket on the top bolt. LOL! I don't bother removing the manifold or any of that. I can get one out now in about an hour or so.

Jason
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I don't see how it's possible to get the starter out without removing the maniold.
 

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Gum my friends, gummy stuff

I have figured out over the years that when placing nuts or bolts far away (ie not by hand, but by tool) a really easy way to hold the fastener in the socket (be it a nuit or a bolt) is any kind of gummy substance-- sticky, ooey-gooey stuff-- hockey tape (black friction tape) works great --

really helps on that doggone starter bolt to secure the bolt in place in the socket, attached to the 6 foot articulated 3/8 extension, attached to the U-joint and then to the 2 foot flexible section, finally to the ratchet by means of a flexible sky hook (left handed of course)-- then the job is easy!
 

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the devil made me remove that starter

I don't see how it's possible to get the starter out without removing the maniold.
Of course, you realize what you're making me do. I'm now forced to try to remove a starter from the V6 without dismounting the exhaust manifold and heat shield. Also of course, it will happen on the isolated engine sitting in the garage with no car wrapped around it. But then I will know. It seems that Jason is already convinced that he can remove the starter that way, but he probably does it in AZ.

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I think I could do one with the engine on the ground also...no drive shafts, right?
 

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I don't see how it's possible to get the starter out without removing the maniold.
I knew you where going to say that. ;)

I have done several in the car. It is a bare but much better than removing the manifold and heat shield. Not really sure on my time to remove it but it was pretty quick. Remove rear downpipe from manifold, remove heat shield, loosen manifold slightly and slide out after removing wires.


J
 

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10 hours and how many beers later!!!!!? ;):D Whew!
What Jason, you couldn't weld an extension on there too!? ;)
'
Charles
 

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I find it interesting that it hasn't been discussed that only the 2 bottom bolts for the starter are really necessary.
On one of the 164s at home, only the bottom two bolts were used (covered 100K miles like this - no problems). And in place of the top bolt, a locating pin was used to keep dirt out of the threads (basically an old bolt with the head cut off and rounded with a dremel - lots of options here both on starter and not).
If the big diesel motors that use starters with 3-4 times the torque of a 164 starter only use two bolts - why not ours?
Any time the starter has been out, it has offered less bloody knuckles and FAR less time involved - and it's a lot easier to simply check the torque on the two lower bolts every (insert convenient time interval here) than to worry about that top starter bolt.
Just my two cents.
The other car will be converted to the two bolt and locating pin setup if the starter needs to come out.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Besides the top bolt

Of course, there are other issues besides the top bolt. Once all the bolts are out, the starter still has to come out. I've not found a way to do it without removing the exhaust manifold.
Out of the 10 hrs, only about 45 min was spent taking the upper bolt out. Putting it back in took 10 minutes. I used Steves method of putting a deep socket on the nut complete with a 6" extension. A tie wrap around the extension and solenoid holds it all in place while the starter is installed and the bolt is tightened.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Jason,
I just read your post. I'm very interested in exactly how you do this without removing the manifold. Could you spare the time for a detailed procedure? You haven't taken any pics have you?
 

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Residual starter removal questions

Jason Minos mentioned in post #5 of this thread above:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/658057-post5.html
that he takes the starter out in about an hour (woo-hoo!!!!) without removing the exhaust manifold. The question was raised, "Just how do you do that?"

The summary Alfisto Steve provides for his process includes removing the drive shaft connection for the right-hand road wheel, and if needed loosening the head shield mounting bolts (two only, of the six exhaust manifold bolts). This is from 2005(!):
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/151020-post3.html

I am left with a few questions. I have to remove a starter, or have you guessed that yet? I even had this starter pre-emptively rebuilt a few years ago when I pulled the engine from the car for transmission input shaft bearing replacement. No joy from that rebuild, I guess.

Steve recommends draining the transmission/diff, taking the right-hand half-shaft loose, and disconnecting the bolts holding the drive shaft in place so you can slide the shaft right-ward to open up the access under the car for starter removal straight downward from the starter's mounting point. The starter electricals can be dismounted after the starter is moved downward, Steve says.

Question -- Is the starter bolt removal method shown in Richard2's post
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/267822-post1.html
easier or more difficult than removing the false firewall or using gprocket's from-the-top technique shown in
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/570789-post27.html
or than using Jason's (and, I think, Steve's) approach working at the starter from underneath?
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/272680-post6.html
Which works better for most of you? I'm not looking forward to my first (very first) in-place starter swap. Darn, I thought I'd covered that by the pre-emptive rebuild. There is the possibility that the solenoid was simply re-painted rather than replaced by the shop that did the work. I should have made the question pointedly when I had the work done away back 2-3 yrs ago.

I guess I've settled my other questions in the process of looking up all of the references above....

Michael
 

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I think a 13mm starter wrench can be a big help here working on top bolt going in under throttle body with air cleaner, air flow meter and intake hose removed. Pretty tight working on a 5-speed model because of bell housing being higher and having reaction rod bracket bolted to bell housing, too. I just practiced loosening top starter bolt on engine I have under work bench using curved stater wrench and loosening two manifold bolts holding heat shield.

Would be easier on an automatic model because bellhousing rounded. I put curved wrench on top starter bolt much easier on my black beauty 164L A/T. In fact I can put my finger right on top starter bolt on that car.

I am pretty sure you have to at least loosen all the bolts on exhaust manifold and remove axle and exhaust pipes to get starter out of car.

It is just not a fun job no matter how you attack it.

Have you definitely ruled out a wiring, or starter relay or ignition switch issue?

I finally had to bypass antitheft system on Myron's LS to get starter to work by going straight from ignition switch starter wire to pin 86 of starter relay under the dash.

Try going through big round G151 connector starter solenoid 2.5mm black wire pin 1 in outer row with 12v directly to starter solenoid to be sure starter won't work. If it works then check I10 red stripe starter relay under dash behind radio area. It is same style relay with diode as engine ECU on radiator top support. You can use it to troubleshoot starter.
 

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I verified that there is 12V to the starter solenoid when the key is switched to "start." When I disconnect the wire to measure, I get 12.35 Volts. When I leave it attached, I get 11.0 Volts. The solenoid coil draws current, drawing voltage down, but 11 Volts should actuate solenoid -- but no magnetic slug motion is detectable. When I frap the starter with a breaker bar, it gives me a couple of revs when key goes to "start" before lugging down. Looks like a solenoid fault, sticky internally so switch connection is poor and it won't deliver current to run starter.

I'm still bummed about this "rebuilt" starter not lasting. Either I spent too much trying to prove out a local supplier (10 miles away instead of the 20 going to a Norfolk source) or I lost track of which was the rebuilt unit. But it was shiny and newly painted, so I don't think the mistake was in ID of the unit, but maybe in choice of supplier. I still remember telling my son why we were replacing the starter with a rebuilt one while we were in there.

Oh, well, maybe I'll take Monday as vacation and work on the car with said son. Worse things have happened than a father/son activity opportunity. The biggest problem with that is "high temperature 40F, mostly cloudy" from the weather forecast. Maybe Sunday p.m. would be better for getting started, pulling bolts, wiring, and half-shaft. If I finish with it all that p.m., I can call myself ahead of the game. Better than pulling and re-installing an engine (which would itself beat the 5 days that Richard2 scares everyone with for the starter bolt work, eh, Richard?).

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter #18
WOW, this is a scary post:) The car was in a storage garage a mile from where I lived. I had to walk everywhere as it was my only transportation. Boy, was it frustrating.

There is a really good rebuild shop in Bellingham that does starters for cars, trucks, boats all over WA. There have a large shop and lots of stock. When I walked in the door the first time carrying my starter. The guy behind the counter looked at it and said...OH, an Alfa! He may have one on the shelf for an exchange, or I probably have one rebuilt and ready to go if you need it. I'm in Brussels, will be home Feb 2.
 

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Michael, I reckon the problem with that previously-rebuilt starter will be just that the grease on the pinion sleeve has turned sticky, so the solenoid can no longer push the pinion along the shaft properly. The last starter I did, I just used a spray of light penetrating oil, which shouldn't go sticky.

I've said before that I believe the hardest part of starter removal is removing/refitting the manifold, so if you can avoid that, great. I guess that is why you're starting with removal of the driveshaft.

With two people it would be relatively easy to have one person guide the socket onto the top bolt while the other person manipulates several extensions and ratchet handle underneath the car. Universal joint may help too though I found best tool was a 1/4"-dr long extension and 1/4"-dr 13mm socket. The usual 3/8" extension is difficult to thread past the webs cast into the crankcase.

I discussed the leaving-off of the top bolt in another thread, I don't think that is a good idea but, each to their own. Yes, other starters are attached by only two bolts, but those bolts are diametrically opposed (not 2 out of 3).

-Alex
 

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Starter removal with heat shield/manifold IN SITU

Update on -my- issues:

I followed the suggestions to pull the drive shaft. Unfortunately, I drove the seal through the bearing housing and now have to recover from that. I can't simply push it back through. Acceptable.

I drained the transmission oil. It wasn't too terribly voluminous. I think it was sub-spec. level, and I suspect the transmission was not properly lubricated. Better to find than not. Acceptable.

All of the starter bolts were accessible (5-speed '93 164L). I applied a 6" extension with 13 mm socket to the upper bolt blind from underneath the car and connected a drive extension set from the right-side wheel-well, operated by a second party. Much better than by myself. I had to remove the oil filter to accomplish this connection.

Re-installation of the starter bolts was a snap. Even the top one. I used 2 layers of paper towel (maybe a gprocket suggestion?) to stabilize the bolt in the 13 mm socket. Again I used a second party with extension from the right side wheel well to drive the bolt into place after fixing the other two bolts. The seating of the bolt was done blind from under the car, and placement was verified by driving the screw into the hole and finding it bottoming out after ~10 turns.

PROBLEM: removing the starter. I fussed for an hour with no success.
SOLUTION: my daughter's boyfriend dropped by and assisted, freeing up the daughter who helped undo the top starter bolt so she could go back into the house. He wanted to examine the 3-D puzzle (he's a EE guy) I was puzzling over, and after a few minutes found the solution. We didn't have to release the manifold or heat shield! The key to the matter in our case (I suspect it will work for everyone) was to rotate the starter around the motor axis so the solenoid was rotated in a forward sense, toward the engine, by 180 degrees. This placed the solenoid on the bottom of the starter, and then the starter could be moved toward the passenger wheel well and then its mounting flange could be rotated downward to dive it out the bottom of the captured area. Re-installation was simple reverse motion--
a) Take the starter with mounting flange on the car's left side and solenoid on bottom.
b) Top butt end of starter upward and insert to right side of exhaust manifold flange.
c) Work starter toward left side of car so it fits into its designated space but solenoid-down.
d) Rotate starter 180 degrees about motor axis with solenoid at bottom of starter rotating toward motor. This is reverse of the removal, during which the solenoid rotated from top of starter toward the engine through to bottom.
e) Mount starter in place and start lower starter bolt, tightening with ratchet.

I had removed the spacer from the starter mounting flange because I thought I needed the space, but this turned out not to be necessary. This mounting makes the top bolt installation a la Steve's pics a difficult thing, but I didn't do it and mounting the top bolt was a piece of cake for me. (OK, took three tries and 10 minutes -- still not too bad).

It's winter and it got dark and was getting cold, so I'll try to finish tomorrow, maybe late afternoon? It's supposed to be 40 F as a high and I'd not like to be messing with the hardware much while it's not much above freezing.

Thanks to all who have gone before on this one. I hooked up the removed starter to the battery charger to test it, and it DID NOT ACTUATE. Frapped the solenoid a few times and it then engaged once, but not the next time it was tried. I'm so happy that the starter/solenoid assembly so clearly showed us that it was indeed the problem. It would have been painful to go through this exercise and learn that the starter was on ly possibly the problem. Now I'm certain. And I'm very grateful to my daughter's boyfriend for the solution to the 3-D puzzle. I was starting to try to rotate the starter to get the solenoid on the bottom for a change, but I was trying to rotate it the wrong way. It only took him 5 minutes to extricate the starter from when he started trying, and it only took me the same 5 minute to get it back in place once he told me how. I hope these instructions will be helpful for someone else.

Michael
 
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