Duetto engine removal - Page 9 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #121 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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it would be a lot easier if you had a good compression test; that would tell you if the rings are OK.

OTOH, if you can do an engine assembly yourself, I'd just pull the engine and do a complete overhaul - rings, bearings, sleeves, new rod bolts, new crank cap nuts, etc. It really isn't that hard, and you won't have to wonder "what was done previously". Parts are not all that expensive, and your labor would be "free".

And a few long term issues - clutch disc for example, oil pump overhaul (Just send it to Gordon Raymond, a BB member and master of oil pumps and weber carbs). Check crank aluminum plugs, consider drilling the #2 and #4 bearing oil galleries as well.

Then redo the seat cushions and upholstery, and the carpets, and .....

It's always easy to get lost in the "Oh, while I'm there I'll just add...". ;-)

Robert
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You could do that, sure. After all, folks with cast-iron blocks have to hone their cylinders "in place". The only issue is that if your crankshaft is still installed, you are going to get honing debris on the rod journals and around the main bearings.

My advice would be to either pull liners and hone them outside the block, or else leave things alone. As you say, if there isn't a perceptible wear ridge, the rings and liners may be fairly fresh.
you're funny Robert! and Jay...i knew if i fished for the answer i wanted to hear ("As you say, if there isn't a perceptible wear ridge, the rings and liners may be fairly fresh") long enough, someone would say it !
thanks fellas

Mark
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post #122 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 09:02 PM
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Leave it alone. Do the valve job and put it back together and enjoy.

1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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post #123 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 09:09 PM Thread Starter
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Leave it alone. Do the valve job and put it back together and enjoy.
Say more things like that!

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post #124 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 10:00 PM
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Professional auto mechanics make a fine living, and have many happy customers, by just doing the few things that brought the car in. It's only us compulsive cases that always want to do more. In my case, I won't reinstall a part without washing it, bead blasting, etch primer, high build primer, 2-part base coat paint (3 or 4 layers), clear coat (4 to 6 layers). 30 minute job takes 6 hours over two days for all that to dry.

If it's small, I'll just bead blast, powder coat, and bake, in an old electric oven. Barely one full day.....

Like I said, compulsive. I've been planning on completely polishing the cylinder head for a while now....

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post #125 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 10:06 PM Thread Starter
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Professional auto mechanics make a fine living, and have many happy customers, by just doing the few things that brought the car in. It's only us compulsive cases that always want to do more. In my case, I won't reinstall a part without washing it, bead blasting, etch primer, high build primer, 2-part base coat paint (3 or 4 layers), clear coat (4 to 6 layers). 30 minute job takes 6 hours over two days for all that to dry.

If it's small, I'll just bead blast, powder coat, and bake, in an old electric oven. Barely one full day.....

Like I said, compulsive. I've been planning on completely polishing the cylinder head for a while now....

Robert
pretty stuff like yours is what people want to see. i'd be afraid to run that beautiful engine.
great work!

Mark
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post #126 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 10:08 PM
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It's only us compulsive cases that always want to do more.
Ha ha - I was going to write something similar in response to markgberry's comment "i knew if i fished for the answer i wanted to hear long enough, someone would say it".

The way I'd phrase it is:

The professional mechanic gets paid by the hour. Don't want to replace your rings? Fine! If your engine smokes after re-assembly and re-installation, he'll be happy to charge you to pull it again, disassemble it again, .....

But for us amateur mechanics who do this stuff for fun, the more we do, the more fun we have. That's why guys like Robert and I always get into "scope creep" on our projects.

You need to decide what level of work you think appropriate. Leaving the rings and liners alone may be the best strategy. And if it isn't, you now know the tricks involved in pulling an Alfa engine & trans.

Jay Mackro
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'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
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post #127 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 10:16 PM Thread Starter
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yea i think it's worth the gamble. if i lose i just get to pull it again. then EVERYTHING gets done. either way it'll be a good data point for future board members.

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post #128 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-17-2019, 11:04 PM
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The professional mechanic gets paid by the hour. Don't want to replace your rings? Fine! If your engine smokes after re-assembly and re-installation, he'll be happy to charge you to pull it again, disassemble it again, .....
I disagree. A good professional Alfa mechanic is going to present the options to you and what the outcome might be for those choice's based off experience. I did hundreds of valve jobs to Alfas back in the day when they were daily drivers and rarely had any problems after they were done.

Also a professional mechanic does not get paid by the hour. We get paid by the job (flat rate). If it pays 10 hours and it takes 12 then we still get paid 10. If something goes wrong or we mess up. We redo it for free.
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post #129 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 12:03 AM
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And most any mechanic that can't beat the Flat Rate Manual won't stay employed very long.

Then there is the BMW (or other) mechanic, who has a factory procedure to follow. That's why my last battery change cost $500: $180 for the battery and three hours to recode the vehicle computer settings and recalibrate the battery management computer - it adjusts the charging system based on the age and capacity of the battery to get optimum life out of the pricy battery - using the dealer's $60,000 vehicle computer programmer.



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post #130 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 12:10 AM
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BTW I have great respect for these expert mechanics. Many things I will do on my Alfa (I know every nut and screw and bolt in the car!) that I would not touch on my rolling computer labeled BMW 330 CSi.

For my Alfa, I've been wrenching on them for over 50 years (gee they were simpler then) and racing them for half that. Pretty much nothing I haven't done many times. I get over 200 HP from my 2L Alfa engine after a LOT of work, with 20+ MPG. My BMW gets 330 HP stock (over 450 HP in as hot a trim as my Alfa) from its 3 liters and also can make over 42 mpg if I can ever bring my self to drive that gently.

But that's what 50 years can do to cars.



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post #131 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
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Well the head parts are on order! The machine shop says the seats are fine. Just need valves, seals, guides and collets.
If you guys have time, I ran into another question today however when I pulled the front cover off for gasket changing: I was having difficulty getting the cover to slide off but eventually it came free. When I pulled it off I found a keyed washer on the crank that had bent over from the the oil pump drive gear being pulled past it when I removed the front cover. My Brooklands manual doesn't mention this washer, or mention anything about removing the oil pump before removing the front cover to prevent this interference. In fact the manual says to leave the oil pump and distributor installed. Does anyone know what's going on here? Extra washer someone put in?
Thanks for looking!
Mark
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post #132 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 09:52 PM
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Oil Slinger. You need it. It helps keep a lot of the oil away from the ft seal.

You should be able to flatten it out. If not someone on here probably has an extra one.

1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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post #133 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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Oil Slinger. You need it. It helps keep a lot of the oil away from the ft seal.

You should be able to flatten it out. If not someone on here probably has an extra one.
Thanks Jim. If it's supposed to be there I should be able to figure out how to manipulate it and the front cover back on. Yea I haven't come across a reference to it in any of the online supplier's catalogs.

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post #134 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 10:08 PM
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Don't put the front seal in until the timing cover is one. You can slide the slinger on then install the front seal.

1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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post #135 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 10:11 PM
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I should be able to figure out how to manipulate it and the front cover back on.
My trick is to "glue" the slinger to the backside of the oil seal using grease, with its notch aligned with the key in the crankshaft. Then just slide the front cover + oil pump back on.

The fun part of this operation is aligning the oil pump-crankshaft gears so that the distributor rotor is properly aligned when the front cover is fully seated. Generally this takes a couple of tries.
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'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

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