Alfa Spider Duetto 1750 chassis VIN query - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 8Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-20-2018, 11:57 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 23
Hi Guys, just to confirm the number revealed when I scratched off the paint was AR2470979. It is not apparent so much in the photos but the panels have been welded in without proper bracing of the shell (e.g. the driver's door to rear wing fit is skewed over 1cm out and rear valance is a patchwork mess. although this is not the biggest issue with the car).

The disappointing thing is that having informed the seller to ask him to share the information in the listing re. the VIN discrepancy this has still not happened which puts another angle on how honest the seller is being here. The sticker over the number and thick paint are troubling. I'm not suggesting the seller did know about this prior to listing the car on ebay but he does know now.
I cannot think of any legitimate reason to change a VIN identification and weld in a new identity

When the potential purchaser could well spend near £20k buying this and then another £20k to properly restore to mint it represents a large % of their savings for some people.

Provenance is so important in expensive collectables as we know. I feel buyers just need to be fully informed as to what they're bidding on and thus far that very significant VIN issue needs to be mentioned clearly in the advert and really clarified. I think we can all agree that when we spend our hard earned savings we should get what was advertised and were led to expect by the seller.
There are potentially buyers who aren't on car forums and may be naive as to what an expensive mistake and headache they're walking into.
Billybob5 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-21-2018, 05:31 AM
Trained (ex)Professional

1953-2018 RIP

Platinum SubscriberAdministrator
 
papajam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Jersey USA
Posts: 16,232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybob5 View Post
It has a later 1750 head with the triangle and dot inside and the engine number on the paperwork is 1055700548/F3645
The seller is saying the car is a 1967 S1 Duetto Spider.
To cut to the chase, the engine would be incorrect for a 1967 1750 Spider if it's the engine listed on the paperwork. And the paperwork is wrong too (could just be a clerical error though). The listed number, 1055700548/F3645, is a combination of a vehicle model number, 10557, and an engine number, 00548/F3645. Engine type 00548 is indeed a European 1750 so this part of the number is fine. However, the F3645 raises a question. With an F prefix, this would be a number for an S2 1750 as it's to high for an S1 (S2 engines start with number 90001 then went a letter prefix). Billybob has also confirmed that the head is an S2.
So yet another inconsistency.

Jim

Series 2 USA 1750 GTV (in Series 1 European clothing)
papajam is offline  
post #18 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-21-2018, 06:36 AM
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,979
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
I wan't aware that they made a 1750 in 1967 unless it's not the original engine. US did not import in 1968 but 1750's started here in MY1969. Were some Euro 68's 1750's; but NOT 67's? The cam cover bolts are most def S2. From afar, it looks like am Alpha Romero Frankencar.
alfaloco likes this.

Last edited by Anfanuts; 11-21-2018 at 06:47 AM.
Anfanuts is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #19 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-21-2018, 06:48 AM
USTA BE AN AD-MIN
Platinum SubscriberAdministrator
 
ossodiseppia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Broomfield, Colorado U.S.A
Posts: 10,898
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfanuts View Post
I wan't aware that they made a 1750 in 1967 unless it's not the original engine. US did not import in 1968 but 1750's started here in MY1969. Were some Euro 68's 1750's; but NOT 67's? The cam cover bolts are most def S2. From afar, it looks like am Alpha Romero Frankencar.
The first 1750's were produced and sold in 1967.

Brian __________________________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ossodiseppia is offline  
post #20 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-21-2018, 06:52 AM
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,979
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossodiseppia View Post
The first 1750's were produced and sold in 1967.
Were they just really late 67 manufactured "68 MY" Euro 1750's? I know some MY cars production preceded their MY, like 68 MY Supers. Euro got 1750's in MY68.
alfaloco likes this.
Anfanuts is offline  
post #21 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-21-2018, 07:14 AM
Registered User
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cologne, Germany
Posts: 7,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossodiseppia View Post
I would encourage the OP to go back and review the chassis number. Sometimes paint can be a bit too think to make out the numbers, clearly.
you make a very good point there...maybe the OP has simply misread the chassis stamping...causing us all to query the car

what he reads as #247 may be in fact, not 247, even not 147 for RHD,
but a stock old 141 for a LHD 1750 european spider
the car was imported from Italy, seller says, so has to be lhd.

the UK licensing papers would just give it a "P" registration (1 Aug 1975 to 31 July 1976)...so that tallies. they do not include when the car was made, they only care about the date of first registration in UK. That they mixed up tipo and engine numbers happened in those days....everything was filled out by hand and sent off and the clerks had to interpret the writing!

my old '63 sprint was imported to UK in 74 and got a 74 plate...no mention of 1963 in the paperwork,as far as they were concerned it was a 1974 giulia sprint!.... though they got the chassis number correct

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.
spiderserie4 is online now  
post #22 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-21-2018, 09:02 AM
USTA BE AN AD-MIN
Platinum SubscriberAdministrator
 
ossodiseppia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Broomfield, Colorado U.S.A
Posts: 10,898
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfanuts View Post
Were they just really late 67 manufactured "68 MY" Euro 1750's? I know some MY cars production preceded their MY, like 68 MY Supers. Euro got 1750's in MY68.
Wille Roos bought his 67 1750 new. I can't comment on model year. That mostly applies to the US. In Italy, the cars are labeled by the first year of registration. So, it would not be uncommon for a 71 built car to be tittled as a 71, or 71. I'm not sure if the rest of Europe is that way. I've seen many examples of 67 1750 Spiders.

Brian __________________________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ossodiseppia is offline  
post #23 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-21-2018, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 23
I can confirm the chassis number physically stamped into the bulkhead is AR2470979.

We (the seller and I) both looked carefully and there was not mistake.

This number as discussed does not relate to a Duetto. It is easy enough to have discrepancies in paperwork numbers on documents with typo errors etc and fairly common in my experience. However having completely the wrong VIN physically stamped into the car is an entirely different matter. Why would this have a RHD S2 VIN stamped? Very strange.

I have again asked the seller to disclose the info in his listing to better inform buyers or to investigate further with a respected authority and the DVLA(UK Government VIN record service). If it were my car I would investigate first to find out as much as I could re. the VIN discrepancy issue before even listing it and disclose findings in the listing.

I think the Alfa enthusiast community would commend such responsible investigation if the seller were to undertake it and they would appreciate the honesty in any subsequent relisting when the story is much clearer.

It's quite a serious thing here in the UK to not mention to prospective buyers something material to the value of that being sold. I think this seller is relying on Caveat Emptor here.

There is a specific UK Act that covers this called the Misrepresentation Act 1967 https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...ation-act-1967

Under this Act it is clear there is a responsibility upon sellers to disclose such important facts and failure to do so when sellers know there is an issue such as this discrepancy is an offence. The buyer can claim against the seller but why should they have to when it can all be avoided by being open and honest from the start.

It's very poor selling behaviour in my opinion.
IRONBLOCK likes this.
Billybob5 is offline  
post #24 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-21-2018, 09:33 AM
Registered User
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cologne, Germany
Posts: 7,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybob5 View Post
I can confirm the chassis number physically stamped into the bulkhead is AR2470979.
We (the seller and I) both looked carefully and there was not mistake.
OK, thanks for confirming that.

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.
spiderserie4 is online now  
post #25 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-21-2018, 10:10 AM
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,979
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossodiseppia View Post
Wille Roos bought his 67 1750 new. I can't comment on model year. That mostly applies to the US. In Italy, the cars are labeled by the first year of registration. So, it would not be uncommon for a 71 built car to be tittled as a 71, or 71. I'm not sure if the rest of Europe is that way. I've seen many examples of 67 1750 Spiders.
Tabucchi shows the changeover year from 1600's to 1750's in '67 with low '67 production of both the GTV and Spider and no 1600's in '68. That said, I have heard of "68" Duettos" so they may have been sold into 1968. The Belrina didn't come until '68. I know of the significantly different '68MY Super in late '67. Back then, recall MY changeover even in the US was in October (may still be, I don't buy new cars).

In any case this car seems problematic with a VIN that does not match the body and some details off like the head. Seems like now that the OP knows this, they should disclose it.

Last edited by Anfanuts; 11-21-2018 at 12:49 PM.
Anfanuts is offline  
post #26 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-21-2018, 12:42 PM
Registered User
 
alfaloco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Lexington, Kentucky USA
Posts: 2,121
Garage
From what I have seen and studied, several posts are correct here on the intro year 1600/1750 question. In Europe, as Tabucchi indicates, Alfa went to the 1779cc (1750) engine in the series 1 car in production year 1967. That being said, a friend of mine owns a European market 1968 Duetto with the 1570cc (1600) engine, however, and it is all original one-owner. Came into the USA via Canada.

I had to do some research myself for the Nashville AROC convention, anticipating some questions over "What IS a Duetto?"-- therefore I looked into the intro years and changeover from 1600 to 1750, and what the cognoscenti considered a Duetto to be, versus the 1750 Spider, as Alfa called them.

I also agree that this deal doesn't pass the smell test, based on the numbers.
Anfanuts likes this.

alfaloco
Lexington, KY USA
alfaloco is online now  
post #27 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-21-2018, 04:45 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 1,874
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybob5 View Post
I can confirm the chassis number physically stamped into the bulkhead is AR2470979.

We (the seller and I) both looked carefully and there was not mistake.

Itís a pity you didnít get a picture of this incorrect chassis number as itís the ONLY bit of information so far doesnít make sense (to me). I donít have a dog in this fight, nor do I know either the seller or the complainant. Indeed I live a world away. (Perhaps the VIN was stamped in at the direction of the UK DVLA, who knows.. a picture of it, the location, font etc would tell us all a lot).

However, for the avoidance of doubt in a thread that has turned into a conspiracy/witch hunt in my opinion. It is quite clearly (from the eBay pictures) a European series one 1750 Duetto/Roundtail Spider. The UK DVLA (V5?) documentation discussed and mentioned in the ad similarly sounds reasonable given the stated import history. A different engine (if it is) and smack in the nose (itís a Duetto, they all have!) only gives the car providence that itís been actually used by somebody.

If I was the owner (Kenneth as mentioned in the ad with his tel. contact details) Iíd be pretty pissed off at the internet trial by suspicion being displayed here.


I own a Ď66 1600 RHD Duetto. Iíve been restoring it for over seven years now and this thread is the exact reason I hesitate to share any of the details I have learned (and enjoyed) with this community. Personally disappointing to be honest as I have learned so much from so many people in here over the last twenty years** or so.


** Iíve had two accounts for those of you now stalking every post Iíve made with faux internet outrage

'66 1600 Duetto | '73 1600 GTJunior | '03 156 1.9JTD Sportwagon | '11 Giulietta QV (wow, revelation) | I really don't need this many Alfa's...

Last edited by Craig_m67; 11-21-2018 at 05:36 PM.
Craig_m67 is offline  
post #28 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-22-2018, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 23
Thanks for the input Craig.

I think the wider issue here is not really in regards to this particular car or to patina, modifiactions, accidents, engine changes(we all know how old engines can be damaged and changed through the years) etc. I think most would agree that there's no issue with any of that if that's what's happened to the vehicle in it's life.

However here in the UK the issue arises when a car is being sold (either privately or by the trade) and the major factors affecting its value(VIN discrepancy in this case) have not been clearly mentioned when selling.

This is not my opinion or a witch hunt against a particuar seller as I have no issue with him personally. It is just the legal requirements in the UK Misrepresentation Act 1967 that protect us from being mis-sold to.

This Act was created because clearly there was a genuine need to safeguard those who had hitherto found themselves mis-sold to with little legal redress.

Whether the car is in good, bad or ugly condition is largely irrelevant, all that matters is that the key points affecting it's value are told to the buyers when selling. The fact that this VIN issue has not been shared in the listing is my real concern as that's what sellers are legally obliged to do and why wouldn't they be happy do that?

If the info were to be shared in the listing then great, bidders are aware and then it's good luck to all concerned.

The seller was a pleasant enough chap to talk to and I do feel for him if he genuinely didn't know about the issue. Owning a car for 24 years only to now discover the VIN is for a very different car must be a shock.

With reference to getting a photo of the VIN that would be a good idea to see what you all make of it. Any members reading this can of course request a photo and any info from the seller to help with this and see what light can be shone here.

My reason for the original post if you re-read it was to simply understand what experienced input there was in the forum re. a VIN discrepancy with a Duetto 1750 and if that VIN could be right for that car somehow.

I agree the seller should contact the DVLA to see if he can trace if a new chassis number was ever issued for the car. This is however very unlikely as new VINs were traditionally only provided for kit cars where there was no pre existing VIN and which may be an amalgam of parts with potentially different manufacturing dates. These would be on a Q registration plate.

I too will request a picture of the VIN and see if the seller is willing to supply that. I'd imagine the seller would appreciate feedback re. this and it may help his discussions with the DVLA. Not mentioning it thus far in the ad is still an issue as he is obliged to do so while the ad is still live.

Thanks fo all the informed input guys, it's been much appreciated.
alfaloco likes this.
Billybob5 is offline  
post #29 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-22-2018, 05:35 PM
Registered User
 
alfaloco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Lexington, Kentucky USA
Posts: 2,121
Garage
BillyBob5, I am in total agreement with you. Truth in advertising, is the phrase used here, because the seller deserves to be made aware of all available information on his car, especially that which he truly does not know. And the buyer deserves to know what they are getting for their money. There's nothing wrong with that. And as far as this forum is concerned, I think the input so far has been constructive and informative, from several experienced Alfisti who KNOW the cars, and who speak with documented facts.

You posted and asked a reasonable question to begin with, and it deserves to be answered openly and completely, with transparency. Heck, I've busted many a knuckle over the years myself, and I know as well that old cars don't usually remain original, but a buyer deserves to know what is NOT original on a classic like this Duetto.

That's the value of places like the Alfa BB. It's not our money on the table, so let the information flow...

alfaloco
Lexington, KY USA
alfaloco is online now  
post #30 of 51 (permalink) Old 11-23-2018, 09:39 AM
Born Again Boarder
Gold Subscriber
 
Anfanuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spicewood, Texas (in the boonies)
Posts: 6,979
Garage
Send a message via Skype™ to Anfanuts
I found the inquiry completely relevant and proper. And ABB comments, as with BAT, on a cars condition always flow forth especially when requested by a potential buyer, frequently to sellers dismay. As well, the details discussed were POTENTIAL relevant clues from afar as to discovering the correct provenance of the car and its correct "YOM" to be verified on-site by the buyer. I think the modern word is "crowdsourcing" information.
Anfanuts is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome