Engine Seized? - Page 9 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 184Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #121 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-16-2017, 06:53 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Shakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Columbia, Missouri, USA
Posts: 544
I power washed the engine and trans, then drained the engine oil. Nothing on the magnetic plug, no debris or other oddities in the oil.

I turned the engine upside-down on the stand, and removed the lower and upper oil pan. Still no culprit. Removing the oil pump had no effect.

It would seem all that's left is to isolate whether it's the crankshaft, or one (or more) of the pistons.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
Shakey is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-16-2017, 07:21 PM
Registered User
 
John533i's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,292
So, you still can turn the crank to rotate the lower end?

86 spider Veloce
74 TR6
John533i is offline  
post #123 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-16-2017, 07:42 PM
But Mad North-Northwest
Platinum Subscriber
 
Gubi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Posts: 9,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakey View Post
]It would seem all that's left is to isolate whether it's the crankshaft, or one (or more) of the pistons.
Only other thing I can think of is some sort of a failure of the intermediate timing gear that locked things up. It's rare but I've seen a couple go in posts on the BB.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engi...-sprocket.html

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
Gubi is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #124 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-16-2017, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Shakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Columbia, Missouri, USA
Posts: 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by John533i View Post
So, you still can turn the crank to rotate the lower end?
No, still cannot turn the crank.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
Shakey is offline  
post #125 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-16-2017, 10:13 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Houston Texas USA
Posts: 718
I think you're going to find that one or more of the "plugs" in the crank throws came lose and there was a localized loss of oil pressure to whatever rod or main bearing was after the missing plug. The bearing with no oil pressure got super hot and seized to the crank. That's why you can't turn the crank. Time to get a good used crank off eBay.

Hope this was helpful. Bye
Milanoguy is offline  
post #126 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-16-2017, 10:27 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Norseman50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 1,456
Garage
Another "long shot". When I first read about this mystery, one of my initial thoughts was a stuck starter motor. I know you have pulled the starter motor now, but did you try and turn the crank by pushing the car whilst in gear AFTER the starter motor was first removed? Have you bench tested the starter, or inspected the flywheel teeth for signs of damage?

Edward
'88 Quad - "Claudia"
Norseman50 is offline  
post #127 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-17-2017, 04:21 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Shakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Columbia, Missouri, USA
Posts: 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norseman50 View Post
Another "long shot". When I first read about this mystery, one of my initial thoughts was a stuck starter motor. I know you have pulled the starter motor now, but did you try and turn the crank by pushing the car whilst in gear AFTER the starter motor was first removed? Have you bench tested the starter, or inspected the flywheel teeth for signs of damage?
I put the car up on jackstands to get the starter out, so I haven't rolled it since then. I did take the starter to the auto parts store, they put it on their tester, and it checked out fine. No damage or unusual wear on starter or flywheel teeth.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
Shakey is offline  
post #128 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-17-2017, 08:51 AM
Registered User
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cologne, Germany
Posts: 7,130
can't wait for you to open the engine and find the smoking gun!....

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.
spiderserie4 is offline  
post #129 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-17-2017, 09:30 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,288
My vote is a cylinder is seized to the sleeve. Just 'cause I had the same problem with the same symptoms.

A dropped plug will drop the oil pressure, which he said didn't happen. Also, loosing oil at a bearing will overheat the soft bearing first, causing it to spin in the aluminum bearing. That might melt the aluminum, but it's hard to seize an engine on one bearing.

I too am anxious to find out.....

Robert
AaronsSpider likes this.
60sRacer is offline  
post #130 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-17-2017, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Shakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Columbia, Missouri, USA
Posts: 544
I took the connecting rod caps off. All four pistons slid smoothly in the liners (although 1 & 4 had less movement, since they're in the vicinity of TDC, and I can't turn the crank).

Now I'm working on removing the crank itself. I'm having difficulty getting the crank pulley off. The overhaul manual says, "bend back lockwasher tab using a punch and a hammer." Looking at the face of the pulley, I see the nut with a flat washer behind it, but no tab.



I've been soaking it in PB Blaster, while I search through the forums for wisdom.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
Shakey is offline  
post #131 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-17-2017, 06:37 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
not2old4toys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sisters, Oregon
Posts: 2,455
Garage
Alfa stopped using the lock tabs on later Spiders Using a air impact tool should remove that nut easily , but it will take at least 125 psi
Cheers, Jon

Present:
1967 Spider
1974 GTV (1969 Tribute)
1993 Spider ( project)
2018 Stelvio
Past:
1964 Giulia Sprint. 1966 Giulietta 101 Sprint
1967 Super 1968 GTV 1974 Berlina
1979 Alfetta Mille Miglia 1987 Milano
Non Alfa:
1953 MGTD 1958 TR3 1962 AH 3000 MKII
1969 AMX
not2old4toys is online now  
post #132 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-17-2017, 06:49 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Shakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Columbia, Missouri, USA
Posts: 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by not2old4toys View Post
Alfa stopped using the lock tabs on later Spiders Using a air impact tool should remove that nut easily , but it will take at least 125 psi
Cheers, Jon
Well, a driveway mechanic like me doesn't have air tools. I guess I'll try the heat method.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
Shakey is offline  
post #133 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-17-2017, 09:29 PM
Registered User
 
Veronica Mangan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 510
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakey View Post
Well, a driveway mechanic like me doesn't have air tools. I guess I'll try the heat method.
That's what Harbor Freight is for. I'm strictly a shade tree mechanic - I don't even have a real driveway, which makes using jacks and jackstands a real joy, but we did invest in an air compressor and air impact wrench. You can even find buys at places like Home Depot. We got a compressor with air tools on sale there a while back. It's worth a try. But the heat method works too. We're all watching this with great interest! My husband has a Spider. Thank goodness I haven't had to pull the engine on it yet. I have been mostly working on his 164.

Keep up the good work!

VM

Help is always close at hand...

1991 white 164L "Spinor"
1986 white Spider Graduate "8 Legs"
1995 Chevy Caprice Wagon (needs a little love)
1998 Subaru Forester (emergency temporary ride)
1986 Ford F250 - farm rig
1977 Chevy Silverado - retired from the concrete mines
in a constant state of repair: not one, but 2, 1968 Rover P6s
needing a new home: 1975 Black Cadillac 6-door limo
27' Ericson
18' Precision daysailer
Veronica Mangan is offline  
post #134 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-17-2017, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Shakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Columbia, Missouri, USA
Posts: 544
While awaiting divine inspiration on removing the crank pulley, I thought I would do a little more troubleshooting.

(forgive my numbering convention, if it's not technically correct...1 is in front, 4 in the rear)

I loosened the main bearing caps one at a time, starting with #1 and working my way to the rear. When I loosened #4, I could turn the crank. I re-tightened #4, and went back to #3 and loosened it again...no turn.

I pulled the #4 bearing cap, the crank itself was shiny and smooth, but the surface of the bearing was dull and somewhat rough. I pulled all the bearing caps to compare them (at work, we call this an Air Force check). Here's what I found:



I would have expected the bearing surfaces to be smooth and shiny like the crank. All the bearings exhibit some degree of surface action. It almost looks like galling to me. The crankshaft itself looks very smooth and shiny at all locations, with no surface features that correspond to the condition of the bearings. Rubbing the discolored areas with a finger has a rougher tactile feel than rubbing the exterior of the valve cover.

All I did for the photo was to wipe them down with a shop rag. I haven't done any rubbing or cleaning to the bearing surfaces, other than feel around for the roughness that you can see in the photo.

While this seems to be the problem, I do not know the cause. All components had oil on the surfaces, so it seems they were getting lubrication. There wasn't enough coolant leaking into the oil to turn it milky, so I don't think the oil's lubricating qualities were compromised.

Of course, now I've screwed myself: with the bearing caps out, the crankshaft will turn...I'll never get that stupid pulley off now! Once I can remove the crank, I'll be able to see what the upper half of the bearings look like.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)

Last edited by Shakey; 10-17-2017 at 09:44 PM.
Shakey is offline  
post #135 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-17-2017, 09:43 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: beautiful Bucks county PA
Posts: 320
While you're figuring out how to get the nut off the front of the crankshaft you could carefully cut open the oil filter and see what's lurking in it.
Chas H is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome