Engine Seized? - Page 31 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 184Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #451 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 10:21 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim G View Post
It doesn't matter at all unless it was balanced to the flywheel. The pressure plate is the most out of balance piece on an engine. ........
The pressure plate cannot be balanced without the flywheel to compress the levers. They're usually balanced together because of that. So he has a two out o f three chance of assembling it wrong.

Gonna have to remove the flywheel.....

Robert
60sRacer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #452 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 11:28 PM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfaparticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 12,665
Maybe I am lucky. My motor has had three different flywheels, lightened and balanced by RJ, two different Sachs pressure plates and a friction disk that was re-lined during one of the rebuilds, The flywheels were all balanced without the pressure plate and I have had no vibration problems and I regularly rev the motor to 7000 rpm.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
alfaparticle is offline  
post #453 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-27-2018, 08:56 AM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
gigem75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: East Texas
Posts: 6,266
Do you know how old the clutch is? Clutch covers don't "wear out" and when they do it's mostly the springs get weak or the face is scored due to the clutch disc wearing out. I would for sure replace the disc and throw out bearing (which you may already be planning to do) if they are worn and consider replacing the clutch cover if there is even a hint of it heading south. Sachs normally balances the cover by itself since they don't have your flywheel to balance it to so it can be mounted in any direction. I seriously doubt that Alfa balanced the cover with the flywheel and crank at the factory especially since the clutch is a perishable item and they know it will be replaced several times. All that being said it can't hurt to have the clutch cover balanced to the flywheel. I figure you know this but I'll say it anyway... there is a hard to see mark on the flywheel that goes at TDC on the crank.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
gigem75 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #454 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-27-2018, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Shakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Columbia, Missouri, USA
Posts: 540
I had a local shop replace the clutch a little over a year ago (I wasn't as brave back then). I supplied all the parts, and bought the Sachs 3-piece clutch kit from Classic Alfa. They replaced the clutch disc, cover, and throw out bearing.

After thinking about it a bit, they could not have balanced the clutch cover to the flywheel, since they did not remove the engine from the car. I guess the fact that I failed to mark the components upon disassembly is a non-issue.

What remains now is whether I can find a shop who will balance these components for an Alfa. I'll also need to source a flywheel lock; now that I have much of the engine back together, I don't care to jam 2x4 boards alongside the crankshaft like I did during disassembly.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)

Last edited by Shakey; 05-27-2018 at 09:37 PM.
Shakey is offline  
post #455 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-27-2018, 11:53 AM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
gigem75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: East Texas
Posts: 6,266
you can make one and it's a lot easier than trying to make a pinion nut socket

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
gigem75 is offline  
post #456 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-27-2018, 12:33 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
sloboy89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,665
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakey View Post
I'll also need to source a flywheel lock; now that I have much of the engine back together, I don't care to jam 2x4 boards alongside the crankshaft like I did during disassembly.
Just get a flywheel lock for a VW Bug. They work perfectly and are very cheap. Less than $10.
Norseman50 likes this.

Rich

'85 Spider Veloce
'17 Giulia Ti Sport
sloboy89 is offline  
post #457 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-27-2018, 07:44 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Shakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Columbia, Missouri, USA
Posts: 540
Now that I'm back home, I have a chance to measure a few things out:



The shims (2) are each .25mm thick. Of the washers (3), the thick one is 2mm, the thin one is .5mm, and the wave washer is 1.25mm.

So that the wave washer does not act upon soft aluminum on either side, it surely must go between the trunnion and a washer. Even though the machined face of the trunnion is not as wide as the wave washer, I suppose it's adequate.

Using the diagram as a guide, I assembled left support (1), thin washer, wave washer, then trunnion. On the right side, support, thick washer, then trunnion. The action of the wave washer makes the spacing on that side 1.3mm larger than the opposite. I manipulated the transmission through the gears without problem. I then swapped sides with the washers; 1.3mm larger spacing now on the right. Once again, I manipulated the transmission through the gears without problem.

Unlike how I found my trans during disassembly, I now think the thin/wave washer combination go together in the above-mentioned order; which side seems immaterial. I reassembled the components with the two washers on the left side, as seen in the diagram. If for some reason I need to revisit the construct, I can readily access these components from inside the car, without dropping the trans again.

The whole arrangement does not compress the wave washer that much. It makes me think the situation is less about centering, and more about maintaining friction in the gearshift lever for tactile feedback. Even if I put all the shims on one side (which they certainly were not), it would only move the centering of the gearshift lever by .5mm.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
Shakey is offline  
post #458 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-27-2018, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Shakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Columbia, Missouri, USA
Posts: 540
I installed the last two 'second try' valve shims, and my measurements are right on. With that critical task complete, I installed the head, using a thin film of Ultra Grey on both sides of the gasket.

I already had the engine sitting at TDC, and was hoping to be able to time the camshafts without re-indexing the locating bolts and flanges. The first time I connected the timing chain, I could see that I was off on timing. I made some adjustments to the position of the camshafts, and tried again. By the third try I had it right, and when I released the chain tensioner, everything lined up perfectly:



Progress is highly visible at the moment, because the big pieces are starting to come together.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
Shakey is offline  
post #459 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-27-2018, 09:28 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Jim G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ga
Posts: 3,749
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakey View Post
I had a local shop replace the clutch a little over a year ago (I wasn't as brave back then0. I supplied all the parts, and bought the Sachs 3-piece clutch kit from Classic Alfa. They replaced the clutch disc, cover, and throw out bearing.

After thinking about it a bit, they could not have balanced the clutch cover to the flywheel, since they did not remove the engine from the car. I guess the fact that I failed to mark the components upon disassembly is a non-issue.

What remains now is whether I can find a shop who will balance these components for an Alfa. I'll also need to source a flywheel lock; now that I have much of the engine back together, I don't care to jam 2x4 boards alongside the crankshaft like I did during disassembly.
Don't waste your money on having the pressure plate balanced. You would not notice the difference.

1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I just got 2 more. Now I have a Matta. I must be crazy.
Jim G is online now  
post #460 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-28-2018, 05:46 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Shakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Columbia, Missouri, USA
Posts: 540
I have purchased the fuel injector hose & connector kit (hose, bushing, and clamps); I have two questions:



The workshop manual says to remove the injectors from the rail by cutting the pipe with a welder. I'm not trying to be obtuse, but it looks like they're cutting the hose with a soldering gun. Can you just cut the hose with shears, then slit the pieces lengthwise to remove them from the rail and injector? What's the preferred method?

Also the current injector hoses are approximately 55mm long; the new ones in the kit are about 43mm. Is this going to cause any problems?

NOTE: I didn't have good results using a soldering gun with a blade-type tip. I ended up using this wood-burning kit I got from Hobby Lobby. It comes with two exacto-knife tips that worked perfectly: Wood Burning Kit at Hobby Lobby. I also bought some fuel hose and cut it to length; the pre-cut hoses that came with the kit were definitely too short.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)

Last edited by Shakey; 07-05-2018 at 09:19 AM.
Shakey is offline  
post #461 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-28-2018, 06:18 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
sloboy89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 1,665
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakey View Post
I have purchased the fuel injector hose & connector kit (hose, bushing, and clamps); I have two questions:



The workshop manual says to remove the injectors from the rail by cutting the pipe with a welder. I'm not trying to be obtuse, but it looks like they're cutting the hose with a soldering gun. Can you just cut the hose with shears, then slit the pieces lengthwise to remove them from the rail and injector? What's the preferred method?

Also the current injector hoses are approximately 55mm long; the new ones in the kit are about 43mm. Is this going to cause any problems?
Lost in translation. Soldering iron. You can also use a knife as long as you are careful not to cut into the nipple as you describe.

43mm seems short. I just looked at mine (which I cut to length myself from bulk hose), and they are close to the 55mm length of your old ones.

Rich

'85 Spider Veloce
'17 Giulia Ti Sport
sloboy89 is offline  
post #462 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-28-2018, 08:46 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Jim G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ga
Posts: 3,749
Garage
For you young people. Soldering guns use to come with different tips. 2 of them were flat blades on the end. They were used mainly to melt plastic. The reason the shop manual tells you to use this is so you don't nick or scar the ridges on the nipples. They can cause leaking.

The hose size you want is 7.5 mm fuel injection line. If you use this size you don't need any clamps on them.
John533i and Norseman50 like this.

1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I just got 2 more. Now I have a Matta. I must be crazy.
Jim G is online now  
post #463 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-30-2018, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Shakey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Columbia, Missouri, USA
Posts: 540
I 3d printed my own clutch alignment tool. It worked great.


-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
Shakey is offline  
post #464 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-30-2018, 12:22 PM
Registered User
 
John533i's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim G View Post
For you young people. Soldering guns use to come with different tips. 2 of them were flat blades on the end. They were used mainly to melt plastic. The reason the shop manual tells you to use this is so you don't nick or scar the ridges on the nipples. They can cause leaking.

The hose size you want is 7.5 mm fuel injection line. If you use this size you don't need any clamps on them.
I sent my injectors out to be cleaned and they came back with nicks.

86 spider Veloce
74 TR6
John533i is offline  
post #465 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-30-2018, 12:25 PM
Registered User
 
John533i's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim G View Post
Don't waste your money on having the pressure plate balanced. You would not notice the difference.
I had mine balanced to the flywheel when they lightened the flywheel, on my BMW. The Sachs PP failed in two years and it really irked me that I had to use an unbalanced PP after that. I also never noticed an issue and forgot about it fairly quickly. No vibration differences, etc.

86 spider Veloce
74 TR6
John533i is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome