Engine Seized? - Page 30 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #436 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-10-2018, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubi View Post
A "no leak" Alfa is one where the oil just drips on the floor. "Minor leaks" is when oil actively sprays out under pressure.
My 156v6 has never dropped any oil on the floor, but I do believe a tiny little bit sneaks out and finds the exhaust on rare occasions
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
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post #437 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 08:24 AM
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What is the secret to removing the pinion nut? I have fabricated the special tool, and it fits well. I've pressed out the dimples on each side of the shaft, but cannot get the nut to turn. I have the parking brake set, and both wheel chocked so they cannot turn. I'm putting so much force against the ratchet, that I'm concerned about damaging the clutches in the LSD.
Hi Kevin,

I used the Alfa special tool (shown in the first two photos) to lock the flange in place while I loosened the pinion nut with a breaker bar. I used it again during re-assembly.

Since I was only replacing the pinion seal, and didn't want to re-calibrate the pre-load of the pinion bearings, I marked the position of the pinion nut on the shaft before I removed it so that I could put it back exactly where it was. Then after getting it loosened, I counted the number of rotations it took for me to get it free from the shaft. During re-assembly, I rotated the pinion nut that same exact number of turns and re-staked the lock washer.

I also fabricated a seal install tool out of ABS pipe (last 3 photos) in order to carefully pound the new seal into the case without damaging it.

Keep in mind that gear oil can leak out through the splines on the pinion shaft, so you might want to consider adding some sealant on them before you re-install the flange and pinion nut.

Good luck,
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post #438 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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@PSk, that just sounds like a bit of 'petroleum perspiration' to me! It helps prevent corrosion of the exhaust system.

@Norseman50, that's the special tool the shop manual illustrates. I like the seal installation tool. I'm a practitioner of also freezing the seals to aid installation. We have to do that at work sometimes...cold-soak titanium parts in dry ice before installing them.

I'm going to try the impact wrench approach tonight. Hopefully it won't beat the hell out of the pinion nut, as it did my crankshaft nut. Centerline doesn't carry replacement pinion nuts, so I'd have to order one from Classic Alfa.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
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post #439 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 04:34 PM
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Shakey, since the pinion nut is a castle nut, your special tool should work well with the impact wrench to get the nut to back right out without any damage to the nut. Just be sure to apply pressure onto the nut so that the special tool stays fitted well when the impact wrench starts doing its thing. I do recall using my impact wrench to back out the pinion nut last year. Worked real well.
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post #440 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-12-2018, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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@factotum, the impact wrench did the trick. The flange then came off without too much effort, and once removed, I could see that the existing pinion seal was certainly a source of oil leakage. A little gentle persuasion with the puller was all it took to remove the old seal.

I've had the new seal in the deep freeze for a couple of days; a little oil on the outside edge, and it tapped right in. I put a little ultra grey on the pinion splines as @Norseman50 suggested. The dimples and marks all aligned at approximately 58 ft-lbs, so I'm feeling pretty good about how everything went back together.
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-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)

Last edited by Shakey; 05-12-2018 at 04:42 PM.
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post #441 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-12-2018, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
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so I'm feeling pretty good about how everything went back together.
Jeebus. Between that and the oil leaks comment you really like to tempt fate, eh?
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post #442 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-12-2018, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Jeebus. Between that and the oil leaks comment you really like to tempt fate, eh?
One of 'Shakey's Laws of Combat'..."if you think things are going well, you obviously don't know what the hell is going on."

-Kevin
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post #443 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-19-2018, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
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While I'm away, I've been reviewing relevant threads for my engine & trans reassembly and reinstall. I've encountered some contradictory information regarding the configuration of washers on the gearshift trunnion.

Here's the illustration from the shop manual:


As illustrated, we're viewing the trunnion from the rear. My disassembly photos showed the thick washer and wave washer on the left (driver's) side, with the thin washer on the right. (My shims are identical on both sides.) I've read other info on AlfaBB that says the wave and thin washers go on the right (passenger) side.

If I take the illustration at full faith, it almost looks as if the wave washer is alone on the right, and the thick and thin are on the left...but that is not sensible.

For the shape of the wave washer to have its desired effect, it should have a flat surface to act against; the face of the trunnion doesn't seem broad enough to fully interact with the wave washer. Also, the wave washer is thicker than the thin washer. If you put the thin washer next to the trunnion, it would seem subject to deformation by the wave washer.

It seems to me that the sequence should be, on the left side: support, wave washer, thick washer, trunnion; right side: support, thin washer, trunnion. This is how mine came apart, but I also cannot trust anything that was possibly touched by the PO.

This almost seems like the battle of wits to the death from 'The Princess Bride.' "I clearly cannot choose the wine in front of me!" "Aristotle? Socrates? ...morons!"

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)

Last edited by Shakey; 05-19-2018 at 12:28 PM.
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post #444 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-19-2018, 12:22 PM
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The Shims (2) and the wave washer put the tip of the shift into the center of the three shift rods. I've also encountered the same issue and the last thing we want is for the tip of the shifter to contact two shift rods. If I remember correctly the supports (1) have been slightly different which really stumped me. I never could come up with a definitive answer on which side the wave washer goes on. I'm inclined to agree that the wave should be on the left as long as it has steel on each side and as long as the tip of the trunnion is in the center of the center shift rod you will have smooth sailing, er... shifting. I'm sure someone will chime in with a more concrete answer.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

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the ones that got away:
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post #445 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-19-2018, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakey View Post
It seems to me that the sequence should be, on the left side: support, wave washer, thick washer, trunnion; right side: support, thin washer, trunnion. This is how mine came apart, but I also cannot trust anything that was possibly touched by the PO.
when Vin undid his he had a different set up (S4)
drivers left side thick
passenger right side thin plus wave
(that would also make sense to me..... thin shim/washer plus wave; thick shim/washer no wave)

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/1115671-post40.html

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.

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post #446 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-19-2018, 02:13 PM Thread Starter
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@spiderserie4, his was one of the examples I was thinking of. Since my shims are the same on both sides, I guess I'll measure the thickness of the washers, and arrange them in whatever manner keeps things centered.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
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post #447 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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I've been doing a bit of 'read-ahead' for when I shortly return home. The shop manual says I should have marked the orientation of the clutch cover in relation to the flywheel; I am reasonably certain I did not.

If memory serves, the cover is symmetrical, and can fit any of three ways. Is this genuinely a concern? If so, what is the best way to proceed?

NOTE:
What follows in the next several posts is a discussion of the virtues of having indexed the flywheel, clutch disc, and pressure plate before disassembly, and balancing the whole assembly. Let me skip to the end, and say that the car is running great, with no vibration or problems of any kind. In order to frame the discussion, we should characterize the flywheel/pressure plate/clutch disc assembly as UNBALANCED, BALANCED, or OUT-OF-BALANCE.

An UNBALANCED assembly is as it came from the factory. The parts are bolted together without regard to specific orientation. The minor variance in mass production does not generate any unusual vibrations. My assembly was UNBALANCED; it did not matter that I didn't mark the components during disassembly. I put it all back together, and it works fine.

BALANCED is where the components of the assembly have been evaluated, and bias applied (in the form of weighting or lightening) to obtain the minimum rotational vibration. I would imagine this is for racing, or high-RPM performance applications. The orientation of the components is now important, as they now contribute to the bias that achieves the smoothest operation. Indexing the components before disassembly is now important.

OUT-OF-BALANCE is when a balanced assembly has been reassembled in a misoriented manner. The components' bias that previously contributed to a balanced assembly, are now at odds with each other, and my actually induce vibrations.

I hope this helps...read on!

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)

Last edited by Shakey; 09-02-2018 at 11:15 PM.
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post #448 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 08:27 PM
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If you had the flywheel skimmed then it shouldn’t matter. If not, personally I would not worry about it. Unless you can discern how it was before— witness marks, etc

74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump
71 Spider 1750 BOMBER ; 1995 LS 78K tight fast car
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post #449 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 08:48 PM
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The flywheel, clutch disc, and clutch cover are balanced as a unit. Assembling it wrong could cause vibration fro minor to catastrophic. Opening it up after installing is a PIA. Safest path is to take the three parts to a good balancing shop.

BTW - the same is true of all the other rotating parts. Crankshaft, rods, and pistons are also balanced. Also the drive shaft is balanced and should be checked if it was not marked on disassembly.

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post #450 of 572 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 08:52 PM
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It doesn't matter at all unless it was balanced to the flywheel. The pressure plate is the most out of balance piece on an engine. When I rebuilt my 1750 I had the pressure plate balanced with the flywheel. It had a weight the size of a quarter welded to it to balance it.

1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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