Engine Seized? - Page 22 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #316 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-07-2017, 02:14 PM
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@BrundleFly, you are correct. The engine overhaul manual says to leave the extra length of the cigarette seals protruding, so they will be compressed by the pan. I test-fitted my seals before installing the rear bearing, and they're nearly flush anyway; maybe 1mm of extra length. These are from the Spesso gasket set, so different brands may vary.
Listen to Gigem75. You should still put some ultra grey on the end as there is a small void to fill. You will know that the seal is in all the way when you see a little sealant ooze out. That is where oil would leak.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke

Last edited by alfaparticle; 11-07-2017 at 02:17 PM.
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post #317 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-07-2017, 02:16 PM
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Don't ever cut the cigarette seal flush with the block. It will leak if you do.
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1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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I just got 2 more. Now I have a Matta. I must be crazy.
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post #318 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-07-2017, 02:25 PM
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If you think of this special tool as just a sleeve and a piston, it should be easy for anyone with a lathe to make one. It's be just half the "Official" Tool without the connecting bar. I'll bet a lot of BBers (like me)would love to get one....

Robert
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post #319 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-07-2017, 02:40 PM
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I would liked to have had that bulletin back in 71

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
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post #320 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-07-2017, 02:43 PM
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to be honest, I;ve not had a problem putting in cig seals with just a rubber mallet. COat it with sealant, put it in the hole and drive it in. I don't think the tool is really needed ?

74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump
71 Spider 1750 BOMBER ; 1995 LS 78K tight fast car
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post #321 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-07-2017, 02:46 PM
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Me either really but it is a good reason to turn some metal. I've got three and a clean driveway so I must be doing something right.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
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post #322 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-07-2017, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sRacer View Post
If you think of this special tool as just a sleeve and a piston, it should be easy for anyone with a lathe to make one. It's be just half the "Official" Tool without the connecting bar. I'll bet a lot of BBers (like me)would love to get one....

Robert
The sleeve has a taper on the inside which compresses the seal as it goes in. The pin also stops short of the bottom of the tool which is why the length of the seal is important.

I do have a couple of them that I'll be selling.

1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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I just got 2 more. Now I have a Matta. I must be crazy.
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post #323 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-07-2017, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gigem75 View Post
I would liked to have had that bulletin back in 71
Just be happy you weren't working on them for a living when the bulletin was issued. The supplier to Alfa on the seals cut a run of them short. I can't tell you how many of these I replaced with the engine in the car under warranty. I think I did 10 to 15 twice until they figured out the replacement seals were also short.

Its really easy and quick to remove the upper pan with the engine in the car after you've done it 30 or so times.
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1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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I just got 2 more. Now I have a Matta. I must be crazy.
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post #324 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
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As I reassemble the engine, I discovered the cigarette seals that came with the Spesso gasket kit are too short. The engine overhaul manual says the length is to be 63.5mm to 64.5mm. The new seals measure 61.2mm and 61.4mm. It looks like I'll be going the Loctite 510 or ultra-copper route, instead of cigarette seals.

I wanted to use new tab washers on the rear main bearing, and a couple of my pal nuts were missing some teeth. I ordered an "Engine Tab Washer Set" from Classic Alfa which had new pal nuts, tab washers, etc. The washers were fine, but the pal nuts were a disappointment. The nuts appeared to be made of thinner material, and although they looked the same size, I couldn't get them to thread onto the studs. I guess I'll re-use the good pal nuts, and find some thin 10mmx1.0 nuts for the two bad ones.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
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post #325 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 06:50 PM
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pal nuts

Which type do you need? I have a small stash of the ones on the left and more of the type on the right. I can let you have a few of the latter.
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Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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post #326 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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@alfaparticle, thanks for the offer, but I don't want to dig into your personal stash.

Mine look like the ones on the left. I'll post a photo comparing my originals to the replacements. I even tried to tap the threads, but couldn't.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
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post #327 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-09-2017, 09:58 PM
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post #328 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 02:56 AM
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Did you ever discover root cause of this issue?
.... and, did whomever check your crank clean out the journals/oil ways?

'66 1600 Duetto | '73 1600 GTJunior | '03 156 1.9JTD Sportwagon | '11 Giulietta QV (wow, revelation) | I really don't need this many Alfa's...
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post #329 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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So here's the pal nuts side-by side:



The original is on the left, replacement on the right. Although the photo does not convey adequately, it's a bit of an optical illusion in real life...the silver pal nut looks smaller and thinner than the original. In reality, it's only .5mm shorter, and the thickness of the material is similar. The interior diameter of the thread hole is also the same.

I guess the problem with getting it to thread properly lies in the different shape of the thread tabs. I was finally able to use a 10mm bolt with a tapered end to start the new pal nuts and shape the thread tabs.

The next issue was the torque involved. The engine overhaul manual says 8.1-9.6 foot pounds. I realize that small amount of torque is supposed to set the spring tension of those thread tabs, but the pal nuts seem to start deforming at that value. In addition, as I was torquing up one of the originals, it broke some tabs before I approached the prescribed torque range (are they one-time use items?)

...and yes, I've verified it's ft/lbs, and not in/lbs. I'm considering using an actual nut, rather than the pal nuts...there's plenty of thread on the studs for that.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
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post #330 of 572 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 12:17 PM
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the one big difference between the two pal nuts above, is the number of teeth: 9 against 6
the 9 tooth (aka. design 4) is for fine thread.
probably why you found it difficult to screw them on

(or THeeth as this site spells it!)
DIN 7967 - Self-locking counter nuts PAL

By time the S4 came along pal nuts were abandoned.

https://www.boltproducts.com/self-lo...463_470.html#1

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.

Last edited by spiderserie4; 11-10-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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