Engine Seized? - Page 16 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #226 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 02:32 PM
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I must say that I raced A 1600 and 2L without the #2 and 4 drilling with no harm for years. I also changed oil every week, so no sludge ever accumulated.

Then one day the motor wouldn't accelerate. Found out it dropped a crank plug, and spun the #2 bearing into oblivion. Melted the block-side main, splunged the crank bearing. Welded up the damaged aluminum, line bored the block, replaced the crank, drilled and hex screwed all the crank galleries to replace the aluminum plugs.

Oh, and drilled the block....

You generally don't need the block drilled, until you should have done it yesterday. But if you are going to do it, be sure you go to a VERY experienced Alfa shop that has done this many times, has all the right jigs. Even if you have to send the block a long way. Do the job badly and the block is scrap. I think it's been mentioned that you need special proved bearings, and need to grove the block as well. Also RJ recommends a specific mod to the crank oil gallery(s?)

Robert

Last edited by 60sRacer; 10-25-2017 at 02:35 PM.
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post #227 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 02:37 PM
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If you really think that indirect oiling to #2 & #4 is such a risk that the block should be cross drilled then may I ask if you have done it to your motors?
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post #228 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 02:39 PM
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sludge alone is bad...

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Maybe sludge + STP was just too much to allow good oil flow? Mongo dunno.
My 'Alfa' mentor, Alex Bardi, always added a can of STP to his 1750 engine after an oil change. He never had any issues with his Alfa engines. I followed his lead for a few years but grew tired of adding the 'engine honey' as Alex called it. His father owned 'European Auto Imports' in the Marietta/Smyrna area of Georgia. They had some top notch mechanics, so maybe he learned it from them.

Frequent oil and filter changes do not hurt.

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post #229 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 04:19 PM Thread Starter
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I have no Alfa shop in the area, especially one that could drill oil passages in the block. I'll just have to go with the stock oil system. The good news is that our parts washer at work has nozzles that should allow me to flush the oil passages in the crank and block.

I'm pretty diligent about oil changes in all my vintage autos. It's a positive habit transfer from owning '55 Chevys and VW bugs that don't even have an oil filter! I don't usually run STP in each oil change, though. There wasn't sludge or metal in the pan, just some crud inside the crank.

There's no accounting for how this engine was treated by a PO.

-Kevin
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post #230 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-29-2017, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
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While I'm waiting for Classic Alfa to ship my order, I've been cleaning up the engine parts, removing old gaskets and adhesive, and cleaning carbon from liners, pistons, and valves.

I noticed this discoloration near the top of liner #2. It doesn't feel as smooth as the shiny surface of the rest of the liner. Is this anything to be concerned about?



The other three liners look fine.

-Kevin
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post #231 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-29-2017, 12:37 PM
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Any time one is different you should find out why. Have you looked at the pistons and rings? Sometimes the spring behind one of the rings has broken.

Robert
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post #232 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-29-2017, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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Any time one is different you should find out why. Have you looked at the pistons and rings? Sometimes the spring behind one of the rings has broken.

Robert
Piston and rings look good; piston not the most carboned-up of the four. I'm replacing the rings, while I have everything apart.

I guess I'm concerned about the surface of the liner, and whether it will cause problems.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)

Last edited by Shakey; 10-29-2017 at 01:28 PM.
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post #233 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-29-2017, 01:21 PM
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Get the best Hastings rings. A bit more expensive, but very good and worth it.

To install new rings you will need to hone the cylinders. The V-shaped scratch pattern is key to getting the rings to seal. They wear and the cylinders wear together for a perfect fit. If you don't know about this, get your engine shop to hone the cylinders.

You also likely have a small ridge at the top of the cylinders - this is where the piston rings do not quite get to the top of the cylinder, so no wear. You will need to remove this or you can break a ring installing. Again have your shop take care of this.

Break-in is critical to getting rings to seal. There are threads on it - use the right oil, etc. RJ's thread will help you, as will JK's book.

While you have the heads off, you might consider getting the valve seats ground, and perhaps the guides replaced. And use the green Viton valve seals!!

You can notch the heads to allow greater cam clearance, allowing you to use RJ's super good custom cams. But you will need to install the valve guide in a special way to allow the higher lift of these cams. RJ can advise in great detail. Richard is quite an expert with a fully equipped shop. I shipped my head from SoCal to Florida to have him do all these things.

Thats Richard Jameson of RJ Racing. In the suppliers list.

Robert

Last edited by 60sRacer; 10-29-2017 at 01:24 PM.
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post #234 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-29-2017, 01:21 PM
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Piston and rings look good; piston not the most carboned-up of the four....
that blotchiness on the top of liner #2 ('piston not so carboned up') could just be a coolant leak into that cylinder.
(since liners are removed, do remember to check liner protrusion when putting them back with new O rings)

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.

Last edited by spiderserie4; 10-29-2017 at 01:25 PM.
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post #235 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-29-2017, 01:29 PM
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Is number 2 cylinder why she seized, ie. She hydrauliced due to the cylinder filling with coolant?

This would explain why you are not really finding a smowing gun ... what does the head and head gasket look lIke around the top of number 2's liner?
Pete

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post #236 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-29-2017, 03:19 PM Thread Starter
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@60sRacer, I"ve got the Hastings rings. I have no problem with honing the liners to get the crosshatch right. there was no ridge on any of the liners...all four pistons slid smoothly out of the top.

The valve seats on the heads look good; I'll lap them when I replace the valves.

@spiderserie4, Do you think that liner discoloration is due to coolant?...it's up in the combustion area, next to the head. The head itself exhibits no such surface condition.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't just replace that liner. Is there any way to look at a piston or liner to tell if it's blue, pink, or green?

@PSk, The engine wasn't hydrolocked, but seized at the crank.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
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post #237 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-29-2017, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 60sRacer View Post
Get the best Hastings rings. A bit more expensive, but very good and worth it.

To install new rings you will need to hone the cylinders. The V-shaped scratch pattern is key to getting the rings to seal. They wear and the cylinders wear together for a perfect fit. If you don't know about this, get your engine shop to hone the cylinders.

Robert
The hone grit needs to match what type of rings you get. For example chromed rings need the cylinder honed to a different grit then cast iron rings need. If the cylinders are not honed to the correct grit for the rings. They will either never seat in.

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post #238 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-29-2017, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
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Good point, @Jim G; I hadn't considered that. I looked it up, and Hastings recommends 220-280 grit for these rings.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
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post #239 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-29-2017, 05:14 PM
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The hone grit needs to match what type of rings you get. For example chromed rings need the cylinder honed to a different grit then cast iron rings need. If the cylinders are not honed to the correct grit for the rings. They will either never seat in.
Do you choose the grit based upon the top compression ring? When I talked to the Hastings rep I was offered a choice of both top and second rings in cast iron or the top one chrome and the second iron. I am under the impression that the second ring is usually CI in the Hastings set.

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post #240 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-29-2017, 05:27 PM
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