Engine Seized? - Page 15 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #211 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-23-2017, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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The head, block, and crank all went to the machine shop today. Hopefully, I'll hear back in the next few days.

The radiator is presently at the radiator shop.

While I'm waiting to hear back, I can clean up the garage a bit, and work on some of the external pieces.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)

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post #212 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-23-2017, 04:36 PM
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So.... Is this going to be a stock rebuild or has somebody mentioned new pistons, liners, head work, cams... While your in there... It's only project creep, and if your replacing them (you would be if your going to this much trouble)..., you might as well

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post #213 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-23-2017, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Craig_m67 View Post
So.... Is this going to be a stock rebuild or has somebody mentioned new pistons, liners, head work, cams... While your in there... It's only project creep, and if your replacing them (you would be if your going to this much trouble)..., you might as well
Get thee behind me, Satan!

It is all tempting, but I really need to get this thing back on the road. Once the daughters are all graduated and out of the house, the whole car will get a major rebuild. Until then, my priority is to keep it driving.

At this moment, the sole significant exception is to crack open the trans, and do the 1st and 2nd gear synchro fix. @factotum, @fish343434, @60sRacer, @goats, and others have suggested accomplishing the trans mods while I have it out. Since it will improve the drive-ability for the daughters, I plan to do so.

Of course, I'll fix other incidentals that I find during the course of this project (e.g. FI hoses, coolant hoses, belts)
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-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
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post #214 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-23-2017, 05:21 PM
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Get thee behind me, Satan!

It is all tempting, but I really need to get this thing back on the road. Once the daughters are all graduated and out of the house, the whole car will get a major rebuild. Until then, my priority is to keep it driving.

At this moment, the sole significant exception is to crack open the trans, and do the 1st and 2nd gear synchro fix. @factotum, @fish343434, @60sRacer, @goats, and others have suggested accomplishing the trans mods while I have it out. Since it will improve the drive-ability for the daughters, I plan to do so.

Of course, I'll fix other incidentals that I find during the course of this project (e.g. FI hoses, coolant hoses, belts)
You are correct, the priorities are family, health, home, job and then whatever you want to put next. Go far it and good luck.
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post #215 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-23-2017, 05:41 PM
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Do you have a conclusion on root cause of the bearing failure?

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
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post #216 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-23-2017, 06:16 PM Thread Starter
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Do you have a conclusion on root cause of the bearing failure?
When I started cleaning up the parts, I noticed that the crankshaft itself had some sludge built up in the oil passages. I cleaned them up as best I could with some q-tips with the long wooden handles. Hopefully, the hot-dip at the machine shop will fix this.

Nowhere did I find any oil debris or contamination, any broken or obviously bent parts, nor any discoloration indicating heat damage. Valves, camshafts, pistons, accessories...all moved freely. ...Of couse, the crank itself wouldn't turn.

Previously, I would occasionally find some gunk at the radiator cap, which indicated a bit of oil getting in the coolant...but I never saw any cloudiness in the oil whenever I changed it. There were accumulations of the same gunk around the head studs (which made the head difficult to raise off), and at their bottom, near the piston liners.

In my mind, I never did find a smoking gun. Some spent shell casings, perhaps. The neighbors thought they heard fireworks. No suspect is in custody.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)

Last edited by Shakey; 10-23-2017 at 09:53 PM.
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post #217 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-23-2017, 06:20 PM
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Maybe sludge + STP was just too much to allow good oil flow? Mongo dunno.

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
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post #218 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-24-2017, 12:22 AM
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we gotta get Shakey back on the road quick, otherwise his great 3D printing services for us will be put on the back burner

Good luck Kevin, and hopefully the machine shop will find the root cause, and the crank will be spinning again merrily ()

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.
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post #219 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-24-2017, 09:17 AM
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IF you are going to crack the TX case, consider ordering replacement bearings. Also you'll need a gear puller or a hydraulic press to get the gears on and off. The best way to do the 1 and 2 gear fix will be to get replacement dog teeth sets. Call Larry at APE (See ABB suppliers list). New OEM is unobtainable, but used 4 and 5 gear dog sets are usually OK.

Gordon Raymond can tell you about the silk thread trick to prevent TX leakage when you reassemble it.

Robert

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post #220 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
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I got the parts back from the machine shop today. The crank was straight, and didn't need to be turned. The head flatness was less than half of max tolerance, so it didn't need to be resurfaced. The main bearing bore was also within tolerance.

Now it's parts-ordering time!

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
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post #221 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 09:56 AM
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Did they polish the crank bearing surfaces?

74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump
71 Spider 1750 BOMBER ; 1995 LS 78K tight fast car
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post #222 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
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I applied a little 'control' and 'variable' to this experiment:

I wiped off the bearings and crank, applied some oil, installed the crank and all caps...no turn. So that was 'control'.

I removed all the above, removed the #2 and #4 bearings, reinstalled the crank and caps...it turns.
Whoa! That sounds like the "smoking gun" to me. The #2 and 4 main bearings only receive oil pressure through the crankshaft oil passages. And, of course, all of the rod bearings are oiled the same way. It sounds like the STP created an embolism in a crankshaft oil passage that starved #2 and/or #4, leading to the bearing failure.

The condition of the rod bearings would also be suspect (I don't mean the bearing shells - I know you plan to replace those - I mean whether any of the rod bearings seized too - probably not, as that usually results in catastrophic rod failure).

Assuming your crankshaft and block aren't warped or damaged, the solution is to have the machine shop remove the oil galley plugs in the crankshaft, clean the passages with cylindrical wire brushes, and re-install new plugs.

A better fix is to replace the swaged-in plugs with tapped holes + allen head plugs.

The best fix is to cross-drill the #2 and #4 block and main bearings for direct oiling.

Sorry for the late reply - I've been travelling. Sounds like you already have your crankshaft back. You can try spraying carb cleaner (or some other aerosol solvent that comes with a wand) through the crankshaft oil galleries to ensure that they aren't still blocked.
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Jay Mackro
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'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

Last edited by Alfajay; 10-25-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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post #223 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 10:17 AM
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The best fix is to cross-drill the #2 and #4 block and main bearings for direct oiling.
That is unnecessary on an engine that will not see lots of action above 7000 rpm. I have been running a 170+ HP motor for years, regularly shifting at 7000 rpm and there have been no bearing lubrication issues (just sheared flywheel bolts!)

RJ has posted that the main benefit of cross drilling for direct oil to #2 & #4 mains is that it improves the oil feed to the rod bearings which are the ones that typically fail in race motors that have not been modified.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke

Last edited by alfaparticle; 10-25-2017 at 11:18 AM.
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post #224 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 12:15 PM
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That is unnecessary on an engine that will not see lots of action above 7000 rpm.
I will agree that the factory oiling system is adequate for normal use when everything is working properly. And I would never disagree with RJ.

However, you have to admit that an engine that directly oils the #2 & 4 mains has more redundancy than the stock system. In the event of an obstruction in one of the crankshaft oil galleries, having multiple sources of oil to the rod and #2 & 4 mains could be the difference between disaster and ho-hum. I am guessing that such an obstruction is what killed Shakey's engine.

So yes, cross-drilling #2 & 4 might be overkill. But overkill isn't always a bad thing.

Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

Last edited by Alfajay; 10-25-2017 at 12:21 PM.
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post #225 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 02:20 PM
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It is beyond "adequate for normal use". It is fine for high rpm/high power use. There is a probability that obstruction of the crank oil passages caused this problem and if so it is the first one that I have heard of. I lost a motor when an oil filter gasket blew out. It was an unusual event that did not demand re-engineering. If you really think that indirect oiling to #2 & #4 is such a risk that the block should be cross drilled then may I ask if you have done it to your motors?

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
85 GTV6 3L
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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