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post #166 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 60sRacer View Post

NO nut has a 300 ft lb torque spec for tightening! Even wheel lugs are 30 to 80 ft lb and over tightening will warp the discs.
Not quite true. There are axle nuts on FWD cars that have torque specs getting close to that mark. The Porsche centerlock wheels on the Gt3s have torque specs above 400 ft/lbs. Of course, you wouldn't want to use an impact to install them.
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post #167 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 12:52 PM
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Wow! I get to learn something new. Actually I knew that some Caterpillar machines have high torque specs too, but nothing automotive.

Thanks

Robert
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post #168 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by factotum View Post
Robert, I have a similar breaker bar for use on my AC VW engine. It is a 4 foot piece of 1 1/2" angle iron with the 36mm socket welded to one end permanently. The torque needed is from 250-350 ft. pounds. A simple flywheel lock keeps anything from moving.
Can't get those at HF!!
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post #169 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by spiderserie4 View Post
+1

@Shakey
was there a particular symptom that made you add STP in the first place to the oil?

Oh, and a good chance to get rid of the alumaseal in the water...a good working coolant system doesn't need any hocus pocus...antifreeze and distilled water is all it needs.
Nows the time to have the rad flushed and checked thru
Trying to diminish the effects of a leaking head gasket until an opportune time to effect replacement.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
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post #170 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-19-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by nealric View Post
Not quite true. There are axle nuts on FWD cars that have torque specs getting close to that mark. The Porsche centerlock wheels on the Gt3s have torque specs above 400 ft/lbs. Of course, you wouldn't want to use an impact to install them.
I don't want to derail the discussion too far, but how are those nuts installed during a race?
I've used 3/4" impact wrenches on centerlock wheels with very good results.
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post #171 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-20-2017, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Chas H View Post
I don't want to derail the discussion too far, but how are those nuts installed during a race?
I've used 3/4" impact wrenches on centerlock wheels with very good results.
Ironically, the street GT3 centerlocks are not actually good for race duty- they are there for looks. A lot of track types convert to traditional 5-lug wheels. The centerlocks in the cup cars are different. You would use power tools to install the race centerlocks during a race, though they are designed with the expectation of frequent replacements.
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post #172 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-20-2017, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Chas H View Post
I don't want to derail the discussion too far, but how are those nuts installed during a race?
I've used 3/4" impact wrenches on centerlock wheels with very good results.
Back in the old days, the racers would pull into the pits, bash 'off or on' their knock-off nuts with a big lead hammer (try not to hit your fender!). Today, you can buy a deflecting beam torque wrench, extension and socket from 'Stainless Steel Brake Company'. I sent them one of the knock-off nuts and they custom made a 'giant' 4" socket to fit it. The wrench extends to about four feet long and they have marked the torque at, I believe 385 ft-lbs. This protects the chrome on the knock-off nut; something they did not worry about in the old days. I added thin rubber strips to the contact points of the socket, using NOS rubber bumper trim for a Duetto.

I have followed this thread with interest, since I have a Duetto in very similar condition. I was surprised that the pistons were all free in their bores. It is hard for me to believe a bearing that appears to be in in relatively good condition caused the engine to lock up. I sure expected more scoring on the bearing.

I suspect a machine shop could have that nut off in 5 minutes or less.

OBTW, Jim G. (above) has been a factory trained professional Alfa mechanic for over 30 years. He has probably removed more stuck front pulleys than he cares to remember.

Mark
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post #173 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-20-2017, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Shakey View Post
While awaiting divine inspiration on removing the crank pulley, I thought I would do a little more troubleshooting.

(forgive my numbering convention, if it's not technically correct...1 is in front, 4 in the rear)

I loosened the main bearing caps one at a time, starting with #1 and working my way to the rear. When I loosened #4, I could turn the crank. I re-tightened #4, and went back to #3 and loosened it again...no turn.

I pulled the #4 bearing cap, the crank itself was shiny and smooth, but the surface of the bearing was dull and somewhat rough. I pulled all the bearing caps to compare them (at work, we call this an Air Force check). Here's what I found:



I would have expected the bearing surfaces to be smooth and shiny like the crank. All the bearings exhibit some degree of surface action. It almost looks like galling to me. The crankshaft itself looks very smooth and shiny at all locations, with no surface features that correspond to the condition of the bearings. Rubbing the discolored areas with a finger has a rougher tactile feel than rubbing the exterior of the valve cover.

All I did for the photo was to wipe them down with a shop rag. I haven't done any rubbing or cleaning to the bearing surfaces, other than feel around for the roughness that you can see in the photo.

While this seems to be the problem, I do not know the cause. All components had oil on the surfaces, so it seems they were getting lubrication. There wasn't enough coolant leaking into the oil to turn it milky, so I don't think the oil's lubricating qualities were compromised.

Of course, now I've screwed myself: with the bearing caps out, the crankshaft will turn...I'll never get that stupid pulley off now! Once I can remove the crank, I'll be able to see what the upper half of the bearings look like.
I had to find another computer to view the pictures.

Number 2 and 4 mains show signs of the crank rubbing on the bearings. This is the shiny part in the center. Number 4 being the worse. The shininess indicates metal to metal contact. Which generates more heat and has possibly warped the crank. Which is why it would lock down when the number 4 main cap is on. Cranks can be straightened by machine shops.

Do you feel any roughness when you run the edge of your fingernail across the journal of the crank?

The other bearings look like normal bearings with wear. But not worn out.

From just viewing the pictures. I would say that there is a oil feed problem to those 2 mains. There feed by the crank so there is probably sludge or trash partially blocking the hole.

Sludge does build up in engines. Especially ones that are not driven often (ie a couple of times a year) or have set a long time with dirty oil. Even though the oil is a detergent oil that keeps the contaminates in suspension. It will only do so if the engine is used. After about 6 months the contaminates start to settle to the bottom. After a year or two of sitting they will have completely settled out and will have built up on the bottom of the pan and in other small crevices. Like the dead end spots inside the crank oil journals and oil coolers. Over time the sludge can become fairly hard. The sludge that breaks loose can suddenly overwhelm an oil filter and completely stop it up. Some engines do not have by pass valves in case this happens and almost no oil filter remote mount has one. Very few oil filters have them. I use Pure Power oil filters on any engine that doesn't get used often. There not cheap. But worth every penny. Especially when you compare it to the cost of building an engine. They flow better, clean the oil better, have less restriction on the oil flow and most of all they have a bypass valve.

PurePower! Inc. Lifetime Oil Filters

When I put an engine that has been sitting for a longtime. I always pull the pan and clean it. I then change the oil and filter put in new oil and add Liqui Moly Engine Flush. Follow the directions. Then change the oil again. On Alfas I will also pull the valve cover and clean the 4 valleys around the cam followers.

As to the crank nut. At this point I would say by an electric 1/2 inch impact from HF and take it off. If it doesn't remove it. Just return it to HF.

1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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I just got 2 more. Now I have a Matta. I must be crazy.
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post #174 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-20-2017, 09:43 AM Thread Starter
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The crank pulley nut is off! I notched a couple of 2x4's so they would fit between the crank and block, then used a 10' piece of iron gas pipe as a breaker bar.



Even then, it was a bit reluctant. When it finally let go, it didn't 'snap' but gradually released. I inspected the threads carefully, and they looked okay, but the impact wrench has beaten up the surface of the washer quite a bit. That will have to be replaced.

So now it's back on the stand, pull the front, and remove the crankshaft to see what I'll find there.

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
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post #175 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-20-2017, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
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@Jim G, this thing is a daily driver. Although it's an 'around-town' car and doesn't accumulate a lot of miles, it is driven constantly.

I've owned the car for 4 1/2 years, although evidence indicates it has sat for a considerable time at some point in its life. There's no accounting for how a PO may have treated it.

Those PurePower filters look great, but they're godawful expensive!

-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)

Last edited by Shakey; 10-20-2017 at 05:04 PM.
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post #176 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-20-2017, 04:53 PM
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Yeah. There not cheap. I about cried when I bought the 3 I needed for my Duramax diesel. Oil, trans and fuel filter. But oil pressure increased by 5 pounds. Fuel milage got a tad better. Trans also shifts better. I have almost 300,000 miles on all of it.

I've seen enough failures over 30 years that these filters would have prevented.

I have a customer who I recommend them to when we built the engines for his boat 10 years ago. A year ago he spent another 12,000.00 on both of them when sludge and carbon let loose from the oil coolers and completely stopped his oil filters up while running at speed.

Post a picture of the upper bearings on number 2 and 4 main when you get them out.

1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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I just got 2 more. Now I have a Matta. I must be crazy.
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post #177 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-20-2017, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Shakey View Post
The crank pulley nut is off! I notched a couple of 2x4's so they would fit between the crank and block, then used a 10' piece of iron gas pipe as a breaker bar.



Even then, it was a bit reluctant. When it finally let go, it didn't 'snap' but gradually released. I inspected the threads carefully, and they looked okay, but the impact wrench has beaten up the surface of the washer quite a bit. That will have to be replaced.

So now it's back on the stand, pull the front, and remove the crankshaft to see what I'll find there.
The 86 and later engines started using a lock nut. So it no longer has the lock tab. The washer is just a big flat washer. You can just file and/or sand the dents done so its flat and reuse it. As long as the back side and front where the nut pushes against it are okay.

1969 1750 Spider Veloce w/dual webers, 1969 1750 Berlina, 1971 1750 Spider Veloce w/ dual webers, 1985 Spider Veloce 23,000 orig. miles, {Two} 1986 Spider Veloces, 1987 Spider Veloce bought new, 1988 Quadrifoglio, 1991 164S, Plus several more. I think they are breeding.
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I just got 2 more. Now I have a Matta. I must be crazy.
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post #178 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-20-2017, 05:11 PM
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Most (all?) modern spin-on oil filters have a bypass valve. I know Wix, Napa, Purolator, Bosch, etc. do. There's basically a spring at one end of the can, where if the pressure drop across the media gets too high the media shifts in the can and opens up a bypass. No need to spend a ton of cash on an oil filter just for that feature.

Tom

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post #179 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-20-2017, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Gubi View Post
Most (all?) modern spin-on oil filters have a bypass valve. I know Wix, Napa, Purolator, Bosch, etc. do. There's basically a spring at one end of the can, where if the pressure drop across the media gets too high the media shifts in the can and opens up a bypass. No need to spend a ton of cash on an oil filter just for that feature.
Yup, and even the Purepower filter has a bypass in it.
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post #180 of 572 (permalink) Old 10-20-2017, 05:51 PM Thread Starter
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Here's a view of the upper bearings, still in the block. The surface action seems comparable to the lower bearings.


-Kevin
1988 Spider Veloce (with lots of 3D printed parts)
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