69 Clutch Master Cylinder - which way the pipes? - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-29-2016, 01:29 AM Thread Starter
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ANSWERED: 69 Clutch Master Cylinder - which way the pipes go

Putting my 1969 US spec 1750 Spider back together after it was "restored" by a competent but greedy shop 18 years ago. When I realized they were soaking me, I brought it home and parked it for another day - or as it turns out, a decade or two - to be put back together by me. I now am at the get the clutch to work stage and it has been driving me nuts. I took the old brake master cylinder (MC) to be restored and they said it had been defectively done previously, so I ordered a new one from Alfaholics and had new proper pipes made up as well. But of course, there was no record of how it was taken off by the shop, so I'm operating blind.

On http://www.alfaexperience.com/articl...hydraulics.jpg there is a drawing of how the MC is supposed to be piped, with the pipe coming from the brake hydraulic reservoir on the top.



In my Alfa Recambi parts book, it shows the opposite with the reservoir pipe going into the bottom (2) of the MC.



Neither way has worked for me, but before we get to diagnostics, which is the correct way to plumb? I attach a photo of my MC with both positions numbered.

I tried both ways, and it looks like the Alfa Ricambi way is more likely with the bottom (2) coming from the reservoir and the top (1) going to the slave.

I filled the reservoir and it empties OK with gravity, so fluid seems to be getting to the MC

The MC is new, I presume it will work once I know what to do.
  • Disconnecting and lowering the pipe to the MC produces fizz but very little fluid.
  • Loosening the #1 position (to slave) does the same sort of fizz, but very little fluid.

Do I need to pump dozens of times or what?

I've never run into this before and would appreciate instructions for dummies.

I am flying to the US next week, so if I should be buying something (such as a hydraulic hand pump or something), I would appreciate the advice on that as well.
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Last edited by 1750Spyder; 11-01-2016 at 12:58 AM. Reason: Answered
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-29-2016, 01:44 AM
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Hi,
pretty sure reservoir connects to no 2. something you have to be mindful of is that the RHD cars have a different set up. disconnect pipe 1 and pump till fluid comes out there. it does take a while to get fluid thru. i'll take a look at mine tonight as its up on a hoist.

cheers ian

62 LANCIA FLAMINIA GT 2500 PROJECT (now sold) 64 SPRINT GT (Gone)
68 1750 ROUND TAIL SPIDER 70 1750 GTV 62 101 GIULIA SPRINT
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-29-2016, 04:58 AM
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The good thing about the Ricambi parts book is that they used the graphics from the factory parts manuals. Pipe 2 is correct, according to the parts manual.

The parts manuals are available for download:

Spare parts catalogs

To bleed the system, get someone to help you by pumping the clutch pedal while you loosen and tighten the bleed screw on the slave cylinder.

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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-29-2016, 05:19 AM
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looked at mine, definitely no 2

cheers ian

62 LANCIA FLAMINIA GT 2500 PROJECT (now sold) 64 SPRINT GT (Gone)
68 1750 ROUND TAIL SPIDER 70 1750 GTV 62 101 GIULIA SPRINT
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-29-2016, 12:24 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ossodiseppia View Post

To bleed the system, get someone to help you by pumping the clutch pedal while you loosen and tighten the bleed screw on the slave cylinder.
Thanks for confirmation I have the pipes right.

I understand the normal procedure about bleed screw on the slave cylinder (SC) and did first try what you suggest. When nothing happened, I...
  • removed the metal SC line from the rubber hose near the SC and found nothing was coming out when my wife pumped the clutch
  • cracked the SC brake line (loosened the nut) at the master cylinder (MC) and all it did was spit - mostly air
  • cracked the nut of the line from the reservoir and confirmed that fluid would gravity flow from it
  • removed the SC line and pumped the clutch pedal - nothing came out at the MC hole that goes to the SC
  • gave up and posted a query on alfabb

It appears the new MC from Alfaholics is not pumping fluid.

However, I realized I have no idea how the MC actually works (I'm a remove and replace type shade-tree mechanic not a Chuck Yeager type who actually knows what is going on with his mechanical devices before he crashes) so I don't know if I have
  • a defective MC where I should buy another new one
  • a partially-blocked line that I should blow out with compressed air
  • or remove the MC and immerse it in a bath of brake fluid before reinstalling (prime the pump)
  • or buy a brake fluid pump and try to suck fluid from the slave MC.

Advice would be appreciated.

Also for another reply to my query, the car is a LHD US spec car that I brought with me to New Zealand. American owners would have the same car.
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-29-2016, 12:41 PM
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I am wondering if we have advised 1750Spyder correctly regarding which is the inlet and which is the outlet to his clutch master. Referring to the photo below:



I would have guessed that port #1 is the inlet (e.g., connects to the reservoir) and #2 the outlet (e.g., connects to the slave cylinder). Yes, I know that the drawing below the photo suggests the opposite. But I am wondering how the casting could be drilled internally to deliver fluid unless #1 is the inlet, #2 the outlet

Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

Last edited by Alfajay; 09-29-2016 at 02:20 PM.
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-30-2016, 02:13 AM
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there is a very small cup at the end of the master cylinder that blocks the inlet when put your foot on the pedal. this stops the fluid being pumped back in to the reservoir.
cheers ian

62 LANCIA FLAMINIA GT 2500 PROJECT (now sold) 64 SPRINT GT (Gone)
68 1750 ROUND TAIL SPIDER 70 1750 GTV 62 101 GIULIA SPRINT
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-03-2016, 12:28 AM Thread Starter
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69 Clutch Master Cylinder - how to make it work

So, returning to the original question now that I have confirmed its hooked up right. Any ideas on why no fluid comes out of the new Clutch Master Cylinder? I removed the line going to the slave cylinder and pumped the MC with a full reservoir - fluid flows down from it when unhooked, so it is going into the MC, but it does not pump out.

Last edited by 1750Spyder; 10-03-2016 at 12:35 AM. Reason: Changed Title
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-03-2016, 01:26 AM
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make sure the length of the rod is adjusted correctly. if it is too long the valve will be permanently closed and blocking the fluid going in.

cheers ian

62 LANCIA FLAMINIA GT 2500 PROJECT (now sold) 64 SPRINT GT (Gone)
68 1750 ROUND TAIL SPIDER 70 1750 GTV 62 101 GIULIA SPRINT
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-03-2016, 08:39 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Ian,

How do I determine what the correct length is?
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-04-2016, 02:20 AM
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i'd just make it as short as you can till you bleed it. then just trial and error once its primed. it's always tricky getting the fluid flowing.
hope this helps

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68 1750 ROUND TAIL SPIDER 70 1750 GTV 62 101 GIULIA SPRINT
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-19-2016, 02:38 AM
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Hi 1750 Spider, did you get the MC to work? All that Italcaroz has advised is correct and to put the last bit another way: disconnect the connection of the adjustable rod at the rubber boot on the MC to be sure the MC piston comes fully to the outward end of travel. If this doesn't happen the inlet port won't be uncovered thus blocking the fluid. You would expect a new MC to be working correctly but taking it off the car for a closer examination to ensure the piston is making full travel might be useful. Remove the rubber boot to see the piston, must come right back to the circlip. If unsure take the MC to someone who knows. And the reason I'm interested is I'm having the same problem in getting the fluid to come through my clutch MC. Today I found out one reason it doesn't, the piston is seized at the bottom of the cylinder, I could see the rod moving in and out and assumed the MC was working, it wasn't. I will have the MC stainless steel sleeved and returned to original size and renew the seals. The stainless steel sleeve is very durable and successful. How much trouble I have getting the fluid to flow is yet to be seen. Good luck.
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 04:17 PM Thread Starter
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Fluid not flowing through Master Cylinder

As can be seen on a newer thread I started, I purchased a brake fluid vacuum pump to bleed the clutch.

I've now isolated the problem to the new Master Cylinder (MC). Fluid flows to the Slave Cylinder (SC) when I disconnect the pipe between it and the MC and put in in a bowl of brake fluid. When I disconnect the pipe that goes from the MC to the reservoir, fluid gravity flows. This seems to have isolated the blockage to the MC

I've tried both choices of where to plug the two pipes into the MC. No change
I've unbolted the MC and compress it and hand pump it, with no fluid flow
It's a new MC from Classic Alfa UK so I presume it is not defective

Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong, or how to isolate why the vacuum pump affixed to the SC bleed valve (open) is not bleeding the brakes?
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 05:33 PM
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See my comment in your other threads

Brian __________________________________
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzie105 View Post
Hi 1750 Spider, did you get the MC to work? All that Italcaroz has advised is correct and to put the last bit another way: disconnect the connection of the adjustable rod at the rubber boot on the MC to be sure the MC piston comes fully to the outward end of travel. If this doesn't happen the inlet port won't be uncovered thus blocking the fluid. You would expect a new MC to be working correctly but taking it off the car for a closer examination to ensure the piston is making full travel might be useful. Remove the rubber boot to see the piston, must come right back to the circlip. If unsure take the MC to someone who knows. And the reason I'm interested is I'm having the same problem in getting the fluid to come through my clutch MC. Today I found out one reason it doesn't, the piston is seized at the bottom of the cylinder, I could see the rod moving in and out and assumed the MC was working, it wasn't. I will have the MC stainless steel sleeved and returned to original size and renew the seals. The stainless steel sleeve is very durable and successful. How much trouble I have getting the fluid to flow is yet to be seen. Good luck.
I've not yet gotten it solved, but talking with Sterling Clutch and Brake in Auckland, they basically said that Alfa engineering is the problem. They see an Alfa MC every three weeks or so, and have to allocate 30-45 minutes for a job that otherwise would take 5. See this thread for detail.
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