S4: An uncommon starting issue - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 3Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 47
Thanks. I will keep you posted on the results of my cleaning mission once that bugger is back in... Anything I need to look out for while letting the OVS dry?

Afterwards, I will tackle the IAV and spark plugs. Hopefully I am getting closer to the cause of this...
goulet115 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 12:27 PM
Registered User
 
velocedoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: located "almost" at the geographic center of Arizona +/- a few miles
Posts: 4,398
Garage
As to the oil vapor canister, I just cleaned mine. I let it soak in carburetor cleaner for a couple of days, and occasionally taking it out to bang it on a board to dislodge the rust/crud inside. Eventually nothing came out after using a high pressure water jet to blow through it both directions. Again banging it on a board to dislodge junk as I did so.

The unit is powdercoated and took a friend of mine a while with the blast cabinet to get the paint off. Then I used Rustoleum Satin to paint it back to an original patina. I am with you on needing that one hose from the air intake.

When was the last time you changed out the fuel filter that is after the fuel pump? I would suspect there is some sediment that is plugging the paper internally lowering your fuel pressure. Have you checked the fuel pressure regulator to see if it is leaking. Mine was toast. I probably got about 3 oz. of fuel out of mine because the diaphragm was shot.

I would go get a bottle of Lucas injector cleaner and run through the system to clean up the injectors. Great stuff as I use it on all my cars.

Christopher

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
www.alfadoctor.wordpress.com
velocedoc is offline  
post #18 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 08:45 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 47
The OVS is back in the car, the problem has not changed at all. I feel it is getting worse and worse, with the engine now dying if I don't press the gas a little after ignition (Just right after ignition, afterwards its ok) :S

Next steps are cleaning the idle air valve and eventually removing the spark plugs to show you how it looks underneath.
goulet115 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #19 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-29-2016, 12:41 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 47
Hello guys,

I still need your help. It was not the OVS, I don't think I managed to check for air leeks properly as I was afraid the brake cleaner would catch fire and the engine idle is totally unsteady anyway, so I don't think I could check for increasing idle with that...

I still want to check the idle air valve (where is that and how do I check it?) and somewhere read about checking the VVT.

However, the issue is getting worse and worse. The car died a couple of times on me while tapping the gas to roll forward (stop and go traffic) and then rolling a car's length in idle.

The only time I can start the car without 5-8 seconds of cranking is when it sat for a couple of days.

I want to finally find the culprit this weekend, please help me on my way with more suggestions and a few detailed instructions. I know it is a lot to ask but I don't want the issue to get worse and worse.

Thanks a lot,
goulet115
goulet115 is offline  
post #20 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-29-2016, 01:20 AM
Registered User
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cologne, Germany
Posts: 7,046
checked the sparkplugs yet?

IAV: is on the plenum (photo1).
Remove the electrical plug.
winding test: Put your ampmeter to the 2 terminals and check resistance (you should get somewhere between 7-11 OHMS [correction!])
Cleaning: Remove the hose (don't break it!) Remove the one allen head bolt holding that metal "C" clamp underneath and remove IAV. Spray inside with brake cleaner and shake about. Then a short spray of WD40 as a lubricant, once the brake cleaner has evaporated away.
Check the rubber bung it fits into, in the plenum itself, is not too loose a fit (I use silicone grease to make a good seal)...this is one source of an air leak.

VVT static check: remove the rubber boot. There are 2 connectors (photo 2). Remove these. Apply 12V (you can get 12v + from that black main terminal block - always live - on the driver's side fender, one of the big red wires) to one VVT terminal and a ground wire (say from the cam cover bolt) to the other terminal.......The VVT should click and you will see the solenoid pop in and out. If it does, good, the solenoid is working!
VVT running check: remove the 2 electrical connectors as above, and start engine, reapply the 12V as above, and hold the power to it for some seconds, and the car should idle terribly (apparantly it does already) and almost want to die.......If it does the VVT mechanism itself is advancing the cam timing and is working correct.
Attached Images
  

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.

Last edited by spiderserie4; 08-03-2016 at 02:24 AM.
spiderserie4 is offline  
post #21 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 01:25 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderserie4 View Post
checked the sparkplugs yet?
Not yet, I was hesitant to remove them without dedicated tools, as I will not be able to apply the correct force when putting them back in..

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderserie4 View Post

IAV: is on the plenum (photo1).
Remove the electrical plug.
winding test: Put your ampmeter to the 2 terminals and check resistance (you should get somewhere between 7-11 Amps)
Did you mean Ohm? If so, I got 8.7 Ohm resistance.

The cleaning part worked well, apart from me not being sure if that rubber insert in the plenum is airtight or not. It feels pretty loose. I have attached two pictures so that you get an idea how much (or how little) grease is in there.





Looking to do the VVT check tomorrow, I just bought two wires to connect the terminal to power and ground with.

As always, thanks a lot! Needless to say that the cleaning of the IAV did not help the situation.
goulet115 is offline  
post #22 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 12:51 PM
Registered User
Platinum Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Naples, FL
Posts: 191
It seems you are over your head with this problem. Seek help locally or find a mechanic that is alfa knowledgeable.
paulie123 is offline  
post #23 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 01:13 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulie123 View Post
It seems you are over your head with this problem. Seek help locally or find a mechanic that is alfa knowledgeable.
Granted, I am pretty new to this, but so far I managed to do quite a lot on the car and I am learning each time I try. Even though it might seem trivial how much grease there has to be around that ring (see last post, just as an example), I am sure someone will eventually read this and benefit from it, don't you?

Or are you simply suggesting there might be a bigger problem I won't be able to find?
goulet115 is offline  
post #24 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 01:35 PM
Registered User
Platinum Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Naples, FL
Posts: 191
I'm saying it would be much faster if you found someone that knows the system and you can look over their shoulder and get a education.
paulie123 is offline  
post #25 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 11:08 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 47
Update

So, I took your advice on turning to a specialist and had the car with two different mechanics now (both of which work exclusively on Alfa, one even exclusive to Spiders).

The first mechanic was unable to find the culprit altogether. He said that he suspects a faulty injector, but would be unable to order one for me.

The second mechanic looked at the throttle body and found it to be in order. The same applies to the IAV, that I have cleaned previously. He took out the spark plugs and found them to be sooty, saying the air/fuel mix was thick. He also said that the exhaust fumes contained 2% CO, not the normal 0.5%. He could not pinpoint the problem either, but would start by replacing the AFM, as mine has been tempered with by a PO (the seals on top of the screws are missing).

Any advice on whether I should be hunting for a new AFM or test the VVT first?

For anyone who just started reading: When warm, the car needs 6-8 seconds to start and sometimes even stalls right after or when rolling in neutral.

Last edited by goulet115; 09-27-2016 at 11:11 AM.
goulet115 is offline  
post #26 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-27-2016, 06:26 PM
Registered User
 
velocedoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: located "almost" at the geographic center of Arizona +/- a few miles
Posts: 4,398
Garage
What about checking the oxygen sensor? If it is bad the computer will compensate to keep the system in order, making a car run bad. This is something that you need to dig into thoroughly. It could be any number of items that is causing the issue.
Fuel pressure, fuel pressure regulator, air leaks, bad injector, bad air flow meter, thermo valve in the manifold sending a bad signal to the computer. The thermo valve in the manifold needs to be measured on a ohm meter to see if it falls in the correct range. These go bad.

What did the mechanics check when you took it in? Look at the work order.

Christopher

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
www.alfadoctor.wordpress.com
velocedoc is offline  
post #27 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-28-2016, 01:04 AM
Registered User
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cologne, Germany
Posts: 7,046
yes, what did the mechanic/s actually do?

sooty plugs - did he change them or at least clean them? (get rid of the golden lodge in there at the moment, they must be the age of the car, and replace with NGK BP6ES set to 0,7mm) - that might even cure your problem!

high CO - did he check the lambda sensor? (high CO won't be doing the kat any favours, and that is real expensive to replace)
'suspects' AFM - what reason did he give? Did he do any resistance checks?
'suspects' injector - In most cases they can be serviced with new hoses seals and microfilters professionally, all four for about 150 euros. If you want one new one you will find it NOS, but it'll cost a fortune!

- did he check fuel pressure? (if you pinch off the fuel return line from the FPR is there any difference to warm starting?.....if you pull off the vacuum hose to FPR, is there fuel in it?)

and lastly (not leastly) where in the world are you situated? It is sorta polite to put that in your signature line, then at least people trying to help, know if they could maybe pop round the corner and offer a hand in person...
I would if you were in my neck of the woods, and I could bring long a spare AFM, or ECU, or TPS or IAV..........
goulet115 likes this.

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.
spiderserie4 is offline  
post #28 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-28-2016, 01:20 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 47
I have no clue what exactly he has checked, he only mentioned the throttle body, IAV, air filter and spark plugs to me. He did allegedly clean the spark plugs.

I am quite certain that he checked neither the AFM's resistance nor the lambda sensor.

One would think it can't be so hard to find a knowledgeable Alfa mechanic in Berlin, Germany...







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
goulet115 is offline  
post #29 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-28-2016, 01:34 AM
Registered User
 
spiderserie4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cologne, Germany
Posts: 7,046
ah ok, Berlin....bit far from me

which workshop did you go to in Berlin? ask on the alfisti forum who they recommend.

I only heard of Capuozzo (classic remise), but his set up there looks a bit upmarket perhaps to care for a spider with warm start hiccups!.....though give him a call, maybe he is a normal down-to-earth alfisti!

Dom - Alfa Spider 1990 S4 - formerly: Alfa 101 Sprint, 2600 Sprint, Montreal - family classics: Jensen Interceptor II, '58 Hooper RR Silver Cloud I, Shadow II, '60 Corvette.
spiderserie4 is offline  
post #30 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-28-2016, 01:45 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 47
S4: An uncommon starting issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderserie4 View Post
ah ok, Berlin....bit far from me

which workshop did you go to in Berlin? ask on the alfisti forum who they recommend.

I only heard of Capuozzo (classic remise), but his set up there looks a bit upmarket perhaps to care for a spider with warm start hiccups!

Your offer is more than generous, I might even come around to your area for that! I'll send you a PM!

For the Berlin Alfistis amongst us:
I went to Sarti in Tiergarten and Joachim Liebenau in Kreuzberg. I have heard better things about Joachimsthal in Tegel. I agree with your impression of Capuozzo, and that were confirmed when I went there to schedule an appointment once.

Regarding next steps, I will search the forum for tips on how to test all those components now.

Last edited by goulet115; 09-28-2016 at 01:48 AM.
goulet115 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome