Can't get the f******* engine out!!! - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-16-2006, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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Can't get the f******* engine out!!!

Trying to remove engine & gearbox in my duetto.

It's the first time I've tried this and so I'm working from the workshop manual.

Step 1 after draing coolant, oil and disconnecting battery was to remove the four bolts that fasten the two prop shafts at the flange - duly accomplished, but the damned flange doesnt want to seperate.

Two questions:

1) Is it OK to whack the flange with a heavy hammer?

2) Will it help?

Am I better off to try heat? penetrating Oil? All of the above? Any other ideas?

Gausie
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-16-2006, 01:59 PM
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I'd put one or two of the flange bolts back in VERY loose (so that when the flange comes loose, it won't smack the ground). Lay a piece of wood against the flange and smack the wood with a hammer.

Jim

Series 2 USA 1750 GTV (in Series 1 European clothing)
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-16-2006, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Jim.

It's dark here now and probably a bit late to start pounding - but I'll do that in the morning. Are the flange faces flat? or is there a rim I'll need to clear?

Also, not sure I removed the enough gearchange bits - the manual says remove the gear selection lever and the gear engaging lever. I removed the gear lever from inside the car, but can't find a gear engaging lever. Had a look through the blowups in the spiderpoint catalog - but that doesnt seem to help.

What is a gear engaging lever? And is it only on the saloons?
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-16-2006, 02:24 PM
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Separating driveshaft flanges

Yea, these things tend to get rusted together. I suppose applying some "Never Seize" when reassembling would be a good idea. Anyhow, I have been known to put a small cold chisel against the junction of the two pieces, and giving it a whack. If you leave a burr, you can dress it with a file once everything is on the bench.

The idea of re-installing one or two bolts loosely is good - otherwise it will hit you in the teeth as it comes apart.

I have found that things just don't come apart when you are working on your back with the drivetrain 3" from your nose. On the bench, these parts would just fall apart, but when you are crawling under the car it is hard to apply force effectively.

Jay Mackro
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-16-2006, 02:39 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Jay

By 'Never Sieze' do you mean copper grease?

Any info on the 'gear engaging lever'?

G
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-16-2006, 03:10 PM
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Thanks for the laughs, Jay! Good one!

I'll guess that the gear engaging lever is the trans stub shifter, the small shaft coming up out of the trans that the long shifter is attached to. If this is the case, I've never had to remove this to pull an engine/trans.

Jim

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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-16-2006, 03:53 PM
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Hi Gausie,

Don't despair, just realize you are dealing with the innate perversity of inanimate objects. My solution to any automotive problem usually reveals itself after some personal blood has been shed seeking a resolution. If you're really frustrated, feel free to just hit yourself with a blunt object to draw blood. Speaking "in tongues" helps, also.

And, consider this: while you may consider yourself a novice, with every minute spent on your Duetto, you are gaining experience that sets you apart from people who have never tried to do what you are attempting.

Good luck...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gausie
Trying to remove engine & gearbox in my duetto.

It's the first time I've tried this and so I'm working from the workshop manual.

Step 1 after draing coolant, oil and disconnecting battery was to remove the four bolts that fasten the two prop shafts at the flange - duly accomplished, but the damned flange doesnt want to seperate.

Two questions:

1) Is it OK to whack the flange with a heavy hammer?

2) Will it help?

Am I better off to try heat? penetrating Oil? All of the above? Any other ideas?

Gausie


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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-17-2006, 12:53 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks George.

It's all very frustrating. I had the bodywork rebuilt over the winter by a specialist, whilst I rebuilt a spare engine at home, using a few parts salvaged from an alfetta engine and the standard new bits.

Figured the swap ought to be straightforward ....

Problems so far:

1) Two of the bolt heads attaching the gearbox support cross member sheared off under virtually no torque. Plan to drill them out, retap, and fit the next size up.

2) Seperating the flange (as described)

3) The brooklands manual fotos are small, fuzzy and unintelligible. It wasn't until I gave up with them and went to the Alfar workshop manual that I realised that they are a direct copy of the workshop manual pics - including the same numbering system. The workshop pics are bigger, have sharper focus, and are far clearer.

4) spent way too long looking for a clutch cover that wasnt there. Does this matter?

5) still a little puzzled about gear engaging linkage

7) Gave up on two of the bolts attaching the manifold to the exhaust, and removed the manifold from the head instead. Hoping there'll be enough clearance when I lift.

all in all a bit of an education.

G
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-17-2006, 02:56 AM Thread Starter
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This is nuts.

The first set of sump bolts wont clear the front crossmember (have a spider junior style front underside) and the lower lip of the bellhousing catches (by about 1.5 inches) on the tie rod when I try to tip any further.

Options as I see it are:

a) remove sump in situ
b) remove tie rod

am going for b, despite having no source for new bushings on easter Monday, because A will mean I will have to take the sump off of the new engine to fit - and I've kept the bottom end scrupulously clean during the rebuild. Would be a shame to contaminate it all right at the end.

Oh the joys of classic car ownership.

G
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-17-2006, 05:24 AM
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The tie rod has to be removed -- you're right.

Also, check out this thread showing my experience pulling the engine/trans:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/show...engine+removal

I think you're doing the right thing by referring to more than one manual. I think Braden's Bible talks about pulling the engine, too.

Bill / 1977 Alfa Romeo 4C2000 / 2012 BMW S1000RR / 1975 BMW R90/6
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-17-2006, 05:32 AM
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Gausie,

I put my engine back in on Saturday, and had all sorts of problems making it fit through the gap. First, I had fitted the exhuast manifold, which I had to take off, then I also took off the track rod and even bent the clutch pipe out of the way. Still, the distance from the sump to the stubby gear lever seemed longer than the gap between the bulkhead and the front crossmember. Eventually, with lots of wiggling, pulling and swearing by three people, it went in with (almost) no damage to the engine bay paintwork. Fortunately, the two others helping me were the ones who had done the respray, so I didn't feel so bad! It has to go almost vertical, and an inspection pit underneath definitely helped.

By the way, I agree- a blood sacrifice should be made first, and ignore as a fool anyone who says that an Alfa is an inanimate object- it conspires with my tools all the time!


p.s. Remember to reconnect the track rod arm before trying to wheel the car out of the garage, inspection pit still exposed. Ask me how I know!

Virus Alfa- well and truly infected.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-17-2006, 07:10 AM
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I thought everyone knew that if you didn't bleed on or be burned by whatever, it wasn't going to work right. :shrug:

Also note that the bigger the project, the more you must give. (ie: a shim adjustment might only be a cut finger while a full on rebuild might be more along the lines of hunting up a stray animal from the neighborhood)

'Back in the day' when working on Triumph motorcycles, there wasn't a cat, squirrel, pidgeon or mouse to be found for blocks and I constantly had my fingers wrapped. But wow, what runners I could turn out.....

Note that race vehicles don't require blood, (it's that 'surgically clean assembly' thing and they know it), however they do insist that you get at least 1 second or third degree burn in an area of tender flesh upon completion and initial fire-up.


Inanimate object my butt.

The first ever time you give something a 'come on baby', or 'there you go' you breathe life into it and then it's chickens and voodoo dolls from there on out.




Darren
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-17-2006, 07:18 AM Thread Starter
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Bill - nothing in Braden about pulling the lump - just the cylinder head. Wish I'd found your thread before I started!

Johnny - I guess I have all that pain to come!

I took the engine out without an assistant - barring the problems outlined above, I was surprised at how easy it was. Didnt take any pics, but I'll maybe get my son to document the reinstallation.

G
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-17-2006, 07:28 AM
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Good for you, Gausie!! Not too bad, was it? Although removing an Alfa engine/trans assy for the first by yourself takes extraordinarily large ba.... amounts of courage.

On reassembly, leaving the nose of the car on the ground and jacking up the rear will ease the installation.

Jim

Series 2 USA 1750 GTV (in Series 1 European clothing)
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-17-2006, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifosi
Inanimate object my butt.
I think some of the bloodletting can be alleviated if one becomes fluent in Italian cursing. I've got a copy of Merda: The Real Italian You Were Never Taught in School not far from my shop manuals. Start with fanabla! and work your way up from there, depending on the difficulty of the job.

[FONT="Century Gothic"][B]Bob Farace[/B]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 Spider Veloce[/COLOR]
[I]Director, Connecticut branch, Scuderia Non Originale[/I][/FONT]
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