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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-18-2013, 09:47 AM Thread Starter
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Performance debate

OK - I realize I am opening my self up here, but have an honest theory that I would like to have some thoughts from the group on...

If the 1990 Spiders have the higher-compression S4 motors and, in turn, possibly slightly better performance than the S1-S3 cars, AND they retain the lighter chassis/body/interior of the S3 cars then...

All things being equal (wear, state of tune, etc.), wouldn't the 1990 Graduate model be the best performing vehicle from the factory - based on engine/drivetrain and weight (no power windows, etc.)?

I may be missing something here, and I believe the quads may have a different suspension setup and 15" wheels, but I also understand those 15" phone dials are pretty heavy.

Thoughts...? Flames...?
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-18-2013, 09:55 AM
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Performance

One rule always applies whether it's cars, trains, planes, or boats etc.

You gotta have and feed the horses to handle the weight, this does not totally apply to turns, etc., but still applies to torque.

Just my 02.


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Originally Posted by smsmith View Post
OK - I realize I am opening my self up here, but have an honest theory that I would like to have some thoughts from the group on...
One rule always applies whether it's cars, trains, planes, or boats etc.

You gotta have and feed the horses to handle the weight, this does not totally apply to turns, etc., but still applies to torque.

Just my 02.

If the 1990 Spiders have the higher-compression S4 motors and, in turn, possibly slightly better performance than the S1-S3 cars, AND they retain the lighter chassis/body/interior of the S3 cars then...

All things being equal (wear, state of tune, etc.), wouldn't the 1990 Graduate model be the best performing vehicle from the factory - based on engine/drivetrain and weight (no power windows, etc.)?

I may be missing something here, and I believe the quads may have a different suspension setup and 15" wheels, but I also understand those 15" phone dials are pretty heavy.

Thoughts...? Flames...?
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-18-2013, 10:20 AM
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Hey Smith,

I have an S3 with the engine rebuilt with the higher compression Motronic pistons. The rebuilt engine really did not have much of a performance increase below 3,000 rpm compared to the old worn engine. However, I could feel a increase in performance above 3,000 rpm. Adding a header and cold air intake did not make much of a performance increase either.

You need to remember these cars are dogs for 0 to 60 straight line speed. However, if you've got some curvy roads to drive on they are pure excitement.

So get the 1990 and enjoy the ride.

Randall
86 Spider (Slick)
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-18-2013, 11:01 AM
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Weights of Spiders Through the Years

I posted the following below on the Spider thread, Reducing Weight:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spid...ng-weight.html

As you can see below, Quads and S4s weigh the most.

From page 12 of the Reducing Weight thread:

I was curious about Spider weights through the years, so I pulled out some old Road & Track magazines and found this information. We of course don't know if the fuel tanks were full or what, although I do believe R & T only filled the tanks 1/2 way.

1959 Alfa Giulietta Spider: 2,050

1965 Alfa Giulia Spider Veloce: 2,150 Lbs.

1966 Alfa 1600 Spider: 2,195 Lbs.

1977 Alfa Spider: 2,430 Lbs.

1978 Alfa Spider Niki Lauda: 2,550 Lbs. (from Motor Trend magazine).

1982 Alfa Spider Veloce: 2,495 Lbs.

1983 Spider Veloce: 2,460 Lbs. (my stock personal car; 1/2 tank of gasoline).

1989 Alfa Spider Quadrifolgio: 2,560 Lbs.

1990 Spider Veloce (Alfa brochure spec.): 2,558 Lbs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some other Alfa Romeo weights:


1965 Alfa Sprint GT: 2,200 Lbs.

1966 Alfa Giulia Sprint Speciale: 2,273 Lbs.

1967 Alfa GTV: 2,230 Lbs.

1971 Alfa 1750 GTV Trans Am Race Car, driven by Horst Kwech: 2,245 Lbs.

1983 Spider Veloce, 1987 Milano Platinum (sold), 1974 Spider Veloce (sold), 1973 Ford Ranchero, Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-20-2013, 04:22 PM
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That few hundred pounds difference may not seem like a lot, but I swear there is a noticeable difference in oomph between having a 200 lb passenger and driving alone.

-Hutbed
'84 Spider Veloce (Allegra); Mercedes: '67 250S, '84 190D, '95 C280; '00 Porsche 911 Carrera Cabriolet
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-20-2013, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smsmith View Post
All things being equal (wear, state of tune, etc.), wouldn't the 1990 Graduate model be the best performing vehicle from the factory - based on engine/drivetrain and weight (no power windows, etc.)?
But, all things aren't equal. The earlier cars had a 4.56 diff ratio, while the S3's had 4.11. So, they would accelerate more slowly (but get better gas mileage).

Jay Mackro
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'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-20-2013, 06:18 PM
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Some more weight measures, interesting to compare different sources. These are all for the 1971 Spider.

Alfa Romeo sales literature lists the curb weight as 2,292 lbs.

Both Motor Trend (September 1971) and Road Test (May 1971) magazines echo the Alfa literature at 2,292 lbs.

Sports Car Graphic (May 1971) lists 2,260 lbs. curb weight, 2,485 lbs. test weight.

Road & Track (March 1971) lists 2,315 lbs. curb weight, 2,700 lbs. test weight.

[FONT="Century Gothic"][B]Bob Farace[/B]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 Spider Veloce[/COLOR]
[I]Director, Connecticut branch, Scuderia Non Originale[/I][/FONT]
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-21-2013, 07:56 AM
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2700?! My vote is on the first few. I have two weight tickets for my '84 (S3). One stating 2505 lbs with about a half-tank of fuel in stock form, the other from a few months ago after some lightening and without the rear bumper, but with a full tank- 2360 lbs. I need to get the rear bumper mount done, reattach it, and weigh it again with the new seats.

-Hutbed
'84 Spider Veloce (Allegra); Mercedes: '67 250S, '84 190D, '95 C280; '00 Porsche 911 Carrera Cabriolet
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-21-2013, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hutbed View Post
That few hundred pounds difference may not seem like a lot, but I swear there is a noticeable difference in oomph between having a 200 lb passenger and driving alone.
500 lbs is the rough equivilent of 50 hp...
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-21-2013, 11:34 AM
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The 2,700 pound test weight is with a driver. Being back in 1971, it probably included a passenger to work the stop watch.

1983 Spider Veloce, 1987 Milano Platinum (sold), 1974 Spider Veloce (sold), 1973 Ford Ranchero, Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-25-2013, 10:57 AM
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Just buy a coupe if you want the ultimate dynamics

Angus
1966 Giulia Sprint GT Veloce- Twin Spark Converted
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-25-2013, 01:58 PM
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More Info

Here is a little more data for the 71 (with the 1750 engine) from the March 71 Road & Track -

BHP @ rpm: 135 @ 5500
Torque @ rpm: 137 @ 2900
Curb Weight: 2315 lbs
0 – 60 MPH: 9.9
5th gear (6000 rpm) 114 MPH

Of interest here would mostly be the 0-60 time of 9.9 seconds, I think as that should give use something directly comparable for later-year spiders. I don't think the HP figure is useful because it will be Brake Horsepower aka SAE Gross vs later years SAE Net figures. I don't know if the gross-to-net adjustment also impacts torque, but 'when in doubt, toss it out' so we only have weight and acceleration times to work with.

Below, from our friends at Wikipedia is some info on SAE Gross and SAE Net.

SAE gross power

Prior to the 1972 model year, American automakers rated and advertised their engines in brake horsepower (bhp), frequently referred to as SAE gross horsepower, because it was measured in accord with the protocols defined in SAE standards J245 and J1995. As with other brake horsepower test protocols, SAE gross hp was measured using a stock test engine, generally running with few belt-driven accessories and sometimes fitted with long tube test headers in lieu of the OEM exhaust manifolds. The atmospheric correction standards for barometric pressure, humidity and temperature for testing were relatively idealistic.

SAE net power

In the United States, the term bhp fell into disuse in 1971-72, as automakers began to quote power in terms of SAE net horsepower in accord with SAE standard J1349. Like SAE gross and other brake horsepower protocols, SAE Net hp is measured at the engine's crankshaft, and so does not account for transmission losses. However, the SAE net power testing protocol calls for standard production-type belt-driven accessories, air cleaner, emission controls, exhaust system, and other power-consuming accessories. This produces ratings in closer alignment with the power produced by the engine as it is actually configured and sold.

71 Spider
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-25-2013, 02:06 PM
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There is a noticeable differences with my car between having the gauge on E or F. Same is true with or without a passenger.

JBetc
85 Graduate
"They all do that."
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-25-2013, 03:49 PM
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This Horsepower calculator suggests that Road & Track did their 0-60 run with 2 passengers and at their traditionally "don't break nuthin' leisurely pace.

The calculator gives a time of 9.9 to 60 if you use a weight of 2700 lbs and around 100 clutch HP.

Using a more realistic 2400 lbs and 115 HP at the clutch gives a 0 to 60 of 8.2 seconds.

Using Occam's cousin's close shaver, the truth is probably somewhere below 9.9 and above 8.2 seconds.

71 Spider
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 11-25-2013, 08:18 PM
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I just have fun driving my S3. No idea about weight or anything else.
Just fun driving it
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