Fuel Pump Relay Test? - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-04-2011, 06:38 AM Thread Starter
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Fuel Pump Relay Test?

1985 Spider

Believe I found the Fuel Pump Relay after looking in the FSM which kept telling me it was mounted next to one of the (2) ECM modules I found it under the engine hood mounted above the passenger fender.
I removed it and tried to test –
The schematic on the Relay shows:
1. Terminal 85 above 86 on the Coil side.
2. From the Coil side to the right it shows a dashed line to a diagonal line.
3. On the upper end of the diagonal line is terminal 87a to the right of 87a is 87 (87 is shown as only a terminal point all by itself)
4. At the end of the diagonal line is terminal 30.
I tested the Relay on the bench using a spare good battery-
1. Connected a lead from battery to terminal 85 and a second lead from battery to 86. Relay clicked to indicate it’s energized.
2. Set a digital voltmeter to the ohms setting and set one probe to terminal 30 the other to 87a. Get ‘F’ on meter, releasing probe also get ‘F’ on meter.
3. Did same as (2) above across 30 and 87 and get .2 milliohms and ‘F’ when one probe is removed.
I surmise the Relay is NO GOOD across terminals 30 and 87a as I should have gotten some kind of resistance.
Do you agree?
The thing that makes me unsure is since the schematic shows that “dashed line” from the coil side to the diagonal line.
I wonder if it would only develop a resistance when mounted in the car with all the terminals connected in which case I would not be able to bench test but would have to Jury rig something, and if the engine would have to be kept running to get the test to occur that would not be possible since I’m unable to get fuel pressure to keep the engine running.
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post #2 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-04-2011, 06:59 AM
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I'm just a rookie at this stuff, but based on what I've read from the experts here, I was under the impression that the pump relays were under the rear parcel tray cover, behind the passenger seat, next to the ECM. I thought the engine compartment passenger side relays were AC? I'm sure someone else will straighten me out on this.

Fritz
'87 Quad - on the road!
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post #3 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-04-2011, 07:05 AM Thread Starter
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Senenty1-
I know what you mean, but I’m quite sure it’s the FP Relay because it has the “pink” wire that‘s on the fuel pump.
I found the main relay by the ECU removed that and it tested okay according to the instructions I found online (on another website) to test Relays.
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post #4 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-04-2011, 07:09 AM
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No need to straighten you out, Fritz. You are spot on. The fuel pump relay (and main relay) are next to the fuel ECU under the rear parcel shelf. A/C relays are in the engine bay.

Slider,
I'm assuming that your Spider won't start and you suspect a no fuel problem?

Jim

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post #5 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-04-2011, 09:53 AM Thread Starter
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Papajam-

That’s correct, no start.
Here’s what I’ve done so far-
Pulled fuel line from main fuel pump downstream of Fuel filter and then downstream of pump before fuel filter; in both cases I cranked motor no fuel came out from fuel line.
Measured voltage across terminals of fuel pump with ignition in On position get 0 volts.
Measured same with engine cranking get 2.5 volts across terminals.
Grounded fuel pump terminal to battery negative terminal checked voltage across the fuel pump terminals when engine is cranking got up to 5.5 volts – no higher (Please note during this test I presume there was no residual fuel pressure in the fuel lines upstream as multi starting attempts showed no signs of combustion)
Hotwired the fuel pump direct to the battery heard the pump activate for the first time. –This put pressure in the fuel system. Disconnected hot wire power to the fuel pump reconnected conventional fuel pump connections - cranked engine and got combustion then motor stalled.

[Now don’t get distracted by this next maneuver (before we go here I’d like to I’d like to resolve the initial problem of lack of fuel pressure).
I made the boneheaded mistake of reconnecting the hot wiring to the fuel pump and starting the car simultaneously. It started and ran for 5 seconds before a very audible pop or backfire occurred and smoke bellowed from the passenger side near the firewall with either a burning rubber or burning wire smell. It took what seems like (2) seconds before my assistant turned the ignition off who believes the motor ran on for a couple of more seconds in fine rhythm before stopping .
Since then I had bleed off some of the fuel pressure by disconnecting the fuel line for a short period of time, reconnected all in normal fashion and attempted to re-start the car to see what symptoms the Boneheaded maneuvered caused.
The engine will exhibit combustion, backfire (from the exhaust pipe end) then die all in about (1)-(2) seconds.]
Since then –
I have looked for the Relays and have tested those mentioned in the previous post.
Still looking for the Second relay if I tested the A/C relay and not the FP Relay.
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post #6 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-04-2011, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider View Post
Measured voltage across terminals of fuel pump with ignition in On position get 0 volts.
Expected.
The pumps will not run for more than 1/2 a second or so when the key is turned form off to on unless the engine is actually being cranked or is outright running. (safety feature so you don't get incinerated in an accident)

Quote:
Measured same with engine cranking get 2.5 volts across terminals.
This would be a bad thing.
Most likely culprit is really grossly corroded or crap connections in the circut.

Quote:
Grounded fuel pump terminal to battery negative terminal checked voltage across the fuel pump terminals when engine is cranking got up to 5.5 volts
Implies that the pump power issue is on both sides of the show, not just the -ive circut.

Quote:
Hotwired the fuel pump direct to the battery heard the pump activate for the first time. –This put pressure in the fuel system. Disconnected hot wire power to the fuel pump reconnected conventional fuel pump connections - cranked engine and got combustion then motor stalled.
Expected.
Pump ran when direct connected, but as soon as unhooked things reverted back to the afore mentioned poop power circut.
Engine ran long enough to bleed of residual pressure, then died.

Quote:
I made the boneheaded mistake of reconnecting the hot wiring to the fuel pump and starting the car simultaneously.
Shoulda been no harm in doing that, unless something is really screwed up somewhere.

Quote:
Still looking for the Second relay if I tested the A/C relay and not the FP Relay.
Please to click the l-jet diagnostics link in my sig block.
It has a labelled photo of the relays in question as described previously in this thread.

Suffice to say that there are no relays under the hood that are relevant to the fuel feed system, so if you're playing with relays under the hood, you're wasting your time.


Queries:
While doing all this voltage testing and whatnot, have you been checking both the in~tank and main fuel pumps for function, or just the main pump underneath?

If the fuel level is low and the in~tank pump isn't working, the main pump can't draw fuel up out of the tank well (if at all) even if its working at peak efficiency.

What is the voltage of your battery at the battery during cranking?
If it's under around 10.5 or so, the ECU will not turn on so the injectors will never come online regardless of the pumps supplying fuel.




Darren
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post #7 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-04-2011, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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Only been testing the main pump underneath. I will check 'in-tank" one this evening.

Fuel level in tank is high though, about 3/4 tank.

Voltage during cranking is over 11 Volts, been making sure to keep charged, whenever it's disconnected, it's also brand new.
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post #8 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-05-2011, 09:04 AM Thread Starter
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Papajams -

Checked in Tank pump with ignition to "ON" position only and get:

Lavender Wire to Known Good Ground (KGG) = 2.5 volts
White to KGG started at 16MV and steadily dropped to 3 MV
Black/White to KGG = 11.2 Volts
Black to KGG = 6.6MV

Is it coincidental that lavender to Ground is the same reading I get when MAIN Fuel Pump is tested across black and white terminals during cranking?

Also think I found the MAIN RELAY, it is labeled BOSCH Steurrelais 028023001
There are (7) terminals indicated on the casing but no schematic showing them interconnected in anyway , that is why I never thought of it as a Relay.
Tried to find some info on how to test it but have yet to learn how to do it.
I believe this is the main Relay.
Also Took a peak at the intake hose at the throttle body there’s a mess of oil in there (this is a side thought on why I might be getting that detonation after shutting motor down)
Also did several an Alfa BB searches with some or all of the words “l-jet diagnostics link in my sig block” found some stuff but don’t thinks it’s the diagnostics you speak of.
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post #9 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-05-2011, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider View Post
Checked in Tank pump with ignition to "ON" position only...
The fuel pumps receive power only if
A) the engine is cranking or
B) the engine is running
There will be NO power to the pumps with key on engine off.

Dumb question. Has the fuel pump fuse (and fuse holder) been checked?

Jim

Series 2 USA 1750 GTV (in Series 1 European clothing)
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post #10 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-05-2011, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
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Thought the in tank pump was only activated by the ON postion - I will check again.

I did check the fuse at the ECM. It's good

Do I have the correct relay from my description?
Can you tell me how to test it?
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post #11 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-05-2011, 10:09 AM
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Both pumps operate under the same mechanisms and circuts and only as papajam describes.

Checking the fuse under the cargo shelf doesn't count, outright replacing it with a new fuse is the ideal as even though a old one can look OK, and might even pass a continuity test using a multimeter, they have a penchant for teenie~weenie all but invisible little cracks that open up and break continuity once real voltage and the associated bit of temperature increase is applied to them.
EG:voltage is applied, temp goes up, gaps open, continuity is lost. things cool while getting to the fuse, gaps close, multimeter applied, continuity tests as fine.

Its one of those devious little tricks that the bullet style fuses like to play on us once in a while.
Best to remove all doubt and put in a new replacement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider View Post
Also did several an Alfa BB searches with some or all of the words “l-jet diagnostics link in my sig block” found some stuff but don’t thinks it’s the diagnostics you speak of.
Clickme to jump specifically to where I was referencing.

It's an off forum page for the L-jet spiders as hosted by a site owned by boardmember Greg Gordon, and linked at the bottom of all of ghnl's and my own posts in our signature blocks.
(unless of course you have signatures turned off in you profile preferences, in which case you wouldn't see them)




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Last edited by Tifosi; 04-05-2011 at 10:19 AM.
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post #12 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-05-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
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Thought the in tank pump was only activated by the ON postion - I will check again.
The service manual states that this is the case; tank pump is powered with key on engine off. Unfortunately, the manual is incorrect.

Jim

Series 2 USA 1750 GTV (in Series 1 European clothing)
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post #13 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-05-2011, 10:29 AM
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:nod:
Some manuals also says that the pumps will run if the AFM flap is deflected with the key on.
This would also be an incorrect bit of information onnaconna the spider specific arrangement doesn't/won't/can't function that way, while the same system found in other models will.




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post #14 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-05-2011, 12:10 PM
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The L-jetronic system in the GTV6 has a microswitch in the Air Flow Meter that triggers power to the (single) fuel pump. (AFM's flap opens when engine is cranking or running and then the fuel pump gets power.) Not so in the Spider's L-jetronic system. There is a sensing wire at the coil to send a 'tachymetric' signal to the drive relay (located under the parcel shelf behind the seats). When the engine is running this tachymetric signal triggers the drive relay which in turn triggers the main relay and also powers the (two) fuel pumps. There is also a 'start' signal from the ignition switch that bypasses the tachymetric signal when the the key is turned to 'start'. This ensures the fuel pumps are powered on during cranking (until the engine starts and the tachymetric signal from the coil takes over).

- - Eric
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post #15 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-09-2011, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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Cleaned ground on floor near ECU this seems to raise some of the volt readings at the in tank pump- now get 7volts on Lavender wire with ignition ON

Tested cranking voltage at in tank pump get –
Lavender 6.5V
Black/Yellow 10.5 V
Black – nil
Black/White – nil

Before we get completely immersed
Are there any connections under the consul related to ignition?
I have replaced heater valve and believe I have everything back as before but there are (2) wires I keep thinking about (1) is red with Nylon connector and the other black with soldered donut that I do not believe they were previously connected, previous owner (really wasn’t me) had re-wired the stereo (It runs on hot wire) I’m thinking these (2) connections are left over from the original stereo connections.
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