Giulia Super - making of a race car - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 01:00 AM Thread Starter
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Giulia Super - making of a race car

Hi everybody,
I recently bought Giulia Super (Tipo 115.09S, so called „Nuova“) and I am going to rebuild it into a track car. As I never did something like that before, I will be happy to get any reasonable comments….
The car is from 1975, originally with 1300ccm engine, but I bought it with 2000ccm engine with Del Orto carbs. The first information is that I am not going to build any hi-tech expensive race car, just a track-version of Giulia mostly for having fun. The car will enter races that will last no longer than 30 minutes (mostly shorter) on technical circuits.
Now, what about the crucial parts of the car:
1) Engine – It should be in fine condition, no need for any tuning (so far). The only thing I am going to upgrade is the air filter/intake…. Any tips? And what about the oil specification?
2) Suspension – now its standard setup, unknow age and wear. This will be definitely completely replaced. Do you recommend someting? (I found several „handling kits“ with new shock absorbers and springs, bushes etc., will be happy to hear any real experience)
3) Brakes – the same as suspension – will be replaced completely. Any tips for rebuild/upgrade sets wellcome…
4) Body – will get the cage from local company
5) Anything else you would recommend to upgrade, replace etc…. What about the steering? Any other idea for preventive steps to be sure that the car is safe to run?
Thank you!
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 07:26 AM
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my $.02 - in my opinion.. number one priority is to make the car safe. number 2 is to make it reliable. then can chase more performance. of course, sometimes these things overlap....which is good.
if engine staying stock... stay with stock intake, filters etc. these are well sized and cause no loss of power.
time and money better spent here making sure engine is in good state and set up correctly. do not assume anything. check everything right from the beginning. have seen engines with the top dead center displaced - which moves everything.
oil - sythetic multi grade. maybe 20W50.
replace all the hoses, belts, fluids. drain and flush block. spend money and time checking/cleaning/repairing radiator. if rules allow, replace water pump radiator fan with an electric one mounted to the radiator. this actually saves a measureable amount of power.
brakes - stock brakes are very powerful and more than adequate for a stock engine. rebuild the calipers. ir\f you have any questions about mastercylinders, replace them. replace brake hoses with braided stainless steel ones if possible.
put in a high temp brake fluid. bleed the system often. most important, put in good brake pads for track work. the worst possible place to save. spend the money properly and the car will stop like crazy - over and over. these cars are light, this engine is not powerful, no way you can overtax the stock brakes (with proper pads and fluids).
suspension....
#1 - replace ball joints, tie rod ends, bushings. buy good quality. personally i recommend poly for all the bushings.
#2 - wheels and tires - Tires are biggest determinant to track performance. not sure what you face there, but in the US hard to find decent street/performance tires in
14". still a decent selection in 15"... but most require (work best) a minimum 7" wide wheel. buy biggest wheels rules will allow.
is difficult to fit 15x7" wheels in giuila rear wheel houses, but can be done if offset right. especially if you move the limit strap
mounts. wheels should be LIGHT. you do not have much power to work with, don't want to sacrifice what you have spinning up heavy wheels.
3. - get car lower. how low depends... are you driving it on the street as well? then can not go super low, makes life a little simpler. make suspension stiffer. Keep it
simple. shorter and stiffer springs. something in the region of 1200 pounds/inch in front and 200 in back. heavier sway bars. something like Koni shocks.
4. - get a performance front end alignment. if can, get the rear axle cambered (easy to do) - but of course can not be changed much. at least check. on my super, the
rear axle actually had some Positive camber - BAD. -.5 degrees is about all can get.
5. - set proper ride heights to give good chassis balance. if you can, get the car scaled. for what is worth, most of the "canned" spring packages give a decent start
point on ride heights. from there can adjust front ride heights to bring into good balance.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 07:30 AM
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sorry, hit send before i got done blowing hard. regarding suspensions set up... can replace front upper arm inner bushing (oem is rubber)either w polyurethane which works well - or if want to go a little more hard core, can put in lower control arm bushing. much less compliance, fits perfectly. speaking of upper control arm, replace yours with adjustable ones. they will allow setting proper negative camber up front.
car set up this way will be fast and a lot of fun. that is not to say can not do more, but this meets your criterion of " not building hi-tech expensive race car"
good luck.
andy
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 07:34 AM
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sorry -did not get to proof read this thing before i sent it..
have seen engines with the top dead center displaced - i was trying to say that i have seen the TDC indicator moved. really screws up efforts to set up engine.
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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thank you Andy, I will read it carefully during creation of the car.... (BTW: the car will be track-use only.... no public roads)
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-04-2017, 10:05 AM
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ok, then can think about going lower. in any case, these are good places to start. when tuning, shoot for a neutral, balanced chassis.
and trust nothing on the car (as received), check EVERYTHING. forgot to mention, get copies of factory manuals as well.
good luck, drive fast and have fun.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 04:43 PM
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Hi Kubas,

show some photos of the car please!

For the 2l engine I would consider some good performance cams as they can transform the feel of the engine for not too much money and yes, go for accurate adjustment of timing and valve clearance. Make sure your distributor is working perfectly.

I would use the larger brakes of a 2l model. You will need the upright/spindle assembly and the rotor/hub/caliper but it's a bolt on job.

For the suspension get a good set of stiffer springs plus the Spider series 4 front anti roll bar with the nice matching drop links for it. Having/not having a rear anti roll bar is a matter of taste. I like the Bilstein B6 dampers all round, others prefer Koni red at least for the rear. Don't go very low with the body at least not at the front. I prefer the standard bushing but do replace them all with good quality material, especially the rear trailing arms and the T-Bar need to be perfect. For crisp handling I would stay with 185 or at most 195 tires. Use the adjustable control arms and set to around -1,25 to -1,5 deg camber.

On the track you will probably want a locking diff from a 2l, possibly 9/41 if you can get it.

If your car has a burman steering check the box for cracks!

Last edited by Sig; 02-13-2017 at 04:51 PM.
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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thank you Sig for your comments.... I will save it and use it when the time comes...

so there she is :-) Nothing done on the car yet, thats just as it came from Italy.... Poor quality of picture, do not have time to take it to daylight.... anyway, except of big rust areas on down-edge of the doors and some other various places the rust is not a big issue.... So this will get fixed firts and then the time for mechanical issues will come.... Good thing is that except of chrome rings around the lights the car is complete (including the interior....)


Last edited by Kubas; 02-14-2017 at 12:05 PM.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 01:57 PM
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The car seems like a good starting point!
Looking forward to read about your progress.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 06:40 PM
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If I can jump in with a question... On a 15" rim what tires will fit in the wheel well w/o rubbing and w/o modifying the fenders?
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 07:22 PM
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175/70-15 on a TZ style 5.5-15 wheel will fit without modifying. Everything else will be touch and go and require at least minimal modification.

Grinding back the lip, pulling the fenders, machining brake discs, beefed up trunnion with Heim joint, removing/altering axle straps, narrowed axle are all ways to get you there.

195/50-15, 195/55-15 are definitely within the realm of possibility on anything between 5x15 to 7x15. For race tires there are Hoosier Vintage 5.00x15 as well as Dunlop Racing, as well Hoosier Speedster in 185/65-15. But even some 185/70-14 can be hell to fit on a 6" wheel. Widest 14" from memory that I have seen 205/60-14 with slightly pulled fenders.

Partly it is how low you go - lower is more difficult because the higher up in the wheel house the less space there is in the rear ...


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Originally Posted by maseratiguy View Post
If I can jump in with a question... On a 15" rim what tires will fit in the wheel well w/o rubbing and w/o modifying the fenders?
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-14-2018, 12:57 PM Thread Starter
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there has been some delay, but now finally things have moved....
everything what is not necessary is off the car and bodywork starts.... then the cage, suspension, brake, some engine check and until Christmas it must be ready to race! :-)



all the pictures are here, I will upload when there is anything new.... (hopefull very often ;-)

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...1tSE5pNlJCUmt3
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-14-2018, 01:39 PM
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My suggestions. Make it safe and reliable, put in high temp brake fluid and harder pads and then do a track or test day. This is because you need a base point before you start modifying.

Many chuck in poly bushes, lower the heck out of the car, wild cams, etc. and end up with a twitchy beast that is all over the track and exhausting to drive. I've watched good drivers get in standard Alfas and embarrass modified cars ... Alfa Romeo knew what they were doing, and driver makes the biggest difference.
Pete
ps: One last thing. Don't just chuck in a cage for safety. Ensure it stiffens the car as racing puts a lot of load into car shells and they twist and flex and this can cause rust. My father's BMW 2002 tii (no cage) used to flex so much that you could have put your fingers up through the gap between the top of the door and roof during left hand corners (RHD car), and that was a good rust free car.

My point is you don't want to be fixing rust between every season, you want to making her faster

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Last edited by PSk; 07-14-2018 at 01:46 PM.
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-14-2018, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
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I can only agree with you.... I will go step by step and see.... surely there is no idea of throwing money into wild tuning of everything ;-) I am not chasing just the best lap times, I want to keep the Tipo 105 drive feel that I know and love from the stock cars.... Just want to make it a litte safer and quicker....
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-14-2018, 02:20 PM
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