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I CAN understand why every second car is not an Alfa Romeo

60K views 683 replies 31 participants last post by  alfettaparts2 
#1 ·
We drove our 156 v6 from Tauranga to Hamilton yesterday to show my parents and to have dinner. Yes I put the old thermostat back in ... and yes she ran cold ...

But what an awesome car. So much torque. Doesn't really need a gearbox. How the heck did they do that? Man they must breathe so well.

Went up the Kaimai ranges in top gear without me having to accelerate more than a few millimetres and never dropped below 95km/h. Okay on the way home I dropped down a couple of gears because the corners are tighter.

Quiet, handles bumps well, corners instinctively (this sort of driving you can't tell that is is FWD), didn't use much petrol, aircon worked well, radio worked all the way (major concern with the kids as our old Honda Odyssey looses the station) and very easy to keep to the speed limit. I did though hit the rev limiter in 2nd near the end of the trip home when I was playing ... she revs so fast!

I honestly cannot understand why so many buy other brands! What a car, and strangely reminds me of my GTV in being such a solid and relaxed cruiser/mile eater.
Pete
 
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#112 ·
"I would agree with this theory if the tread wear on the inside was even and consistent, but it isn't"

You can get both constant wear on the inside, such as you get from some toe out, but if the toe out is extreme, you can also get the lateral scuffing, causing in some cases, the uneven wear as the tire scuffs and releases at the frequency of the flexible tire as you drive down the road.

I think the alignment is way off.
 
#113 · (Edited)
Well it would not be the first time a little NZ wheel alignment place has got it wrong (if they have?) but that was one of the selling points and confirmation that there was absolutely no chassis damage with the minor rear end accident it had, that the previous owner fixed. Alarm bells are now ringing a bit ... :eek:

Unfortunately I'm still new to Tauranga so finding a place that I feel comfortable with will probably require joining the Alfa club and asking ...
Pete
 
#115 · (Edited)
"minor rear end accident it had"

Ok, yes, alarm bells are now ringing. Not saying that bad alignment is 100% the problem, but given that there had been an accident previously, the odds are pretty high, as nothing else will wear a modern quality tire like you are seeing except a misalignment of the tire with the road. The significant factors may be bent suspension links, worn suspension bushings, or damaged shocks or struts, thus allowing the tire to bounce and repeatedly wear in patterns, driven by the lateral scuffing.

I had a set of Conti's years ago where one tire had this scalloping wear, finally resulting in steel wires showing in a couple of places and tread separation bumps. Alignment was way off, the shock was too soft, and I hadn't notice the rapid bad wear.
 
#116 ·
Does the car have the JTS 17" spoked wheels on it? If it does, they might be bent. They do have a tendency to do that if hit hard. Bent ones are quite common.
 
#119 ·
My theory is that you either have dud tyres, bent wheels, or someone got the rear alignment wrong. Bridgestone are not immune to faults. They could have been a bad batch for some reason. As for the rotation, we have bought our last two sets of Pirellis from Kmart tyres and they do a free rotation and balance every 10,000km for the life of the tyres, so I wouldn't do it any more often than that. We got 53,000km out of the 245/40/19 Cinturato P1s on our 159 ti SW under that deal, so I think it helps with wear.
 
#120 ·
Okay chucked the rear of the car up on jack stands and all looks straight and accident free. Boot floor is perfect, etc. Spun the left rear wheel and it runs dead true, but admittedly this was the left front wheel.

I can see how to adjust the toe-in/out, so as soon as practical I will book her in somewhere to get a 4 wheel alignment.

While I was under there, I removed the rear muffler section and cut and re-welded (arc) the rear exhaust hanger so the muffler does not hang low like a wet nappy. Always hated that, but now perfect. I think it hung lower because of the ugly plastic skirts it used to run, but I've removed that eye sore and now realigned the exhaust so it looks like a mechanic installed the exhaust instead of some pimply teenager :).

BTW if anybody wants to buy the rear plastic skirt, please PM me. It is a genuine Alfa Romeo part.
Pete
 
#122 ·
And I've now double checked the left rear stub axle straightness and can confirm dead straight. The wheel rim with the questionable tyre on it has 15" run out, so is not dead straight but that is only 0.381mm's so not worth worrying about.

So all is good, time for a wheel alignment and new real tyres.
Pete
 
#124 · (Edited)
Funny you should ask :).

The car is booked in next Saturday for 2 new tyres (Bridgestones again as after a couple of phone calls competitively priced) and a 4 wheel wheel alignment, and I will be putting in new oil/filter. So yep she will then be back in normal action.

I've been busy and had other things to spend our money on ... such as our other car (very second hand Honda Odyssey) which decided to have a tantrum :mad:, and on top of that failed it's WOF (warrant of fitness). $270 later an electrician had replaced the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) and a small amount of the wiring loom that had melted due to the VSS shorting internally. And yes I've managed to get it through the WOF check so the work horse is road legal again :)

I will be very interested to see the result of the wheel alignment and if anything needs to be adjusted, but from now on as part of the engine service, I will be rotating tyres!
Pete
 
#125 · (Edited)
Frustration ensures ... sigh.

So turn up at 9am for my 2 new tyres and wheel alignment check, and well we have had very wet weather over the last couple of days and their workshop is flooded. They have been on to Health & Safety and cannot work until they and an electrician give it the "all clear".

BUT on top of that after talking to their wheel alignment dude, I'm not sure they have the capability I am after as he didn't think that he could confirm if the car was grabbing or not by doing a 4 wheel wheel alignment. This makes no sense to me as doing all 4 wheels at the same time should tell you this ... well it did over 20 years ago when I had my race cars setup. He also said that he thought the wheel was rubbing something which makes no sense as the wear would be even and also very easily noticeable ... so confidence in his ability dropped. I could accept a dud shock though ...

So I might take this set back to try another place. I have found a company that considers themselves to be chassis and steering specialists that do wheel alignments that sound more like I am after. I guess I was/am expecting too much from a tyre seller ...

Why does it matter so much? Well if she is grabbing and therefore the supposedly minor rear ender accident it had before my ownship was not so minor; I will be moving the car on and looking for another. I honestly do not think there is anything wrong with the chassis though but as the tyre wear is weird, I'm checking.
Pete
 
#127 ·
Well yesterday I managed to finish work early so popped in on that steering and chassis specialist and the end result is the 156 is booked in for a wheel alignment next Tuesday. Their workshop was fill of classic cars and when I discussed crabbing and wheel alignments he said, absolutely we will be able to tell you if it is crabbing or not, ie. is the chassis straight down to a 1/10th of a mm.

This is what I am after and the fact that the workshop was fill of enthusiast cars makes me comfortable that they really do know what they are doing. He even asked me how I drove the car and if any special adjustments would be required as he sets up some MG's for the track, etc. ... boringly I said no, as per the book please :)

So then I thought, heck better sort those 2 tyres out ... down the road is a Tyre Master so in I went and yes the tyres that it is going to get are not a top brand but as Nigel Mansell once said they are black round rubber things. End result is I will come in cheaper than what Bridgestone were talking (who by the way have as yet not rung me back ... ) and most importantly answer the nagging question is my 156 really straight chassis wise.
Pete
 
#130 ·
I've had a wonderful stroke of luck. This morning for no real reason than why not I tried some Jif on the rubber/glue residue left behind on the rear bumper from the rear skirt I removed ... and it came off!!!!! Now not easy and a lot of rubbing required but so happy :)

One side already done. Other side tomorrow.
Pete
 
#131 · (Edited)
Drum roll ...

Okay this morning I drove the 156v6 to work with the dodgy tyre on the left front. The noise was shockingly loud.

Note to self; if I ever think a rear tyre is causing wheel bearing like noise, put it on the front and I will more clearly hear the noise.

So 2 new tyres have been put on and the wheels balanced as per normal. Noise has gone! :)

Then we drove 1 minute to the steering and chassis specialist and they performed a 4 wheel wheel alignment. I have the printed results and very happy to confirm that ALL measurements are within factory specs :) :)

The tyre guys thought that it was exaggerated heal and toe wear and to rotate the tyres more often and keep the pressures up. The wheel alignment guy also talked higher tyre pressures than I am used to for a road car. I used to run 34 psi, and I admit that on some of the trips to Auckland she likely ran with less pressure than that ... but the tyre guy set them all to 36 so 36 from now on will be used, and the wheel alignment guy was talking 38 to 40. Surely that is too high?

Anyway a good day and she was so lovely and quiet all the way home. Looking forward to racking up some serious miles on her :)
Pete
 
#132 ·
I'm glad the car is good now. Do they think the tyre was dodgy as well as maybe not being rotated enough?
 
#133 · (Edited)
Good question. I did have a look inside it once it was off the rim and could not see anything. I wonder if it had been run way low on pressure once and this caused or started the issue?

I have to give a plug for Tyre Master in Greerton, Tauranga as to my surprise they put down the air gun and tightened the wheel bolts manually, and they were also fast and careful.
Pete
 
#136 · (Edited)
"Surely that is too high"

Too high. Should be able to run the factory recommended pressures without trouble.

I suspect that while the car alignment meets the original factory specs, they may not be the best for tire wear and mileage but set up for best short term handling, just as the original specs for the 164s were. The factory came out later with a service bulletin which changed the 164 specs which maybe gave less than optimum handling but allowed much better tire wear. 164 owners were getting in some cases only 10k miles out of a set of front tires. Alfa tended to set the specs for handling, not tire wear. Unrealistic. With the newer specs, they could get ~30k miles out of a set of summer performance front tires.

That plus not rotating the tires might accelerate the wear and give you what you ended up with. And, yes, a bad shock or out of balance tire could also be contributory.

Otherwise, glad all else is fine.
 
#137 · (Edited)
Thanks to your post Del I finally looked up in the owners manual what the factory tyre pressures should be and it is 2.5 bar (36 psi). So oops I have added to my tyre wear because I was running 34 psi as that is what the wheel alignment sticker on the windscreen said. I've also being running 4 people up a fair bit and as my kids are pretty much adults that is really 4 up, so running 2 psi low would have increased the rear tyre temp a lot.

So 36 psi all around from now on. I've removed that wheel alignment sticker!


I can also see now why many bang on about 156's being FWD and how that is a shame. When you drive the car it is not an issue at all and it is an awesome mile eater (in fact since it's oil & filter change yesterday I've already slapped another 150km's on her running my daughter around :)) but the limited tyre mileage is all caused by setting up a FWD chassis to handle as an Alfa Romeo should. I'm sure, and hope, the 75/Milano chassis gets considerably better tyre mileage and running that running gear under the FAR better looking 156 body would have been awesome with all independent (FIAT?) suspension, especially if some extra attention was given to the gear change.

Anyway it is what it is and I still enjoy the car.


It does have a couple of minor oil leaks; one from the power steering pump (not long ago I resealed our Honda one and that was easy so should just do this!), and also from the rear of the engine. I'm currently assuming a slight rear crank seal leak ... Thanks to the under tray it never drips on the garage floor :)


One day when I refresh this engine in say 10 years time, I will be looking for solid cam followers as I do have a couple of lazy hydraulic followers that clack away until warm. This will be better now there is fresh oil in her, but these overhead cam hydraulic followers are really an unnecessary item that give considerably trouble on ALL marques. My father has commented on this being a common Audi issue, etc. And yes I am aware they are cheap to buy but they will give trouble again ...

In the end the designers of these modern engines are over thinking and should have stuck to solid cam followers because with modern valve gear and materials the valve clearances simply don't alter and very, very rarely do they need to be adjusted. I had a Toyota Tarago that we checked all valve clearances at the 100,000 mile mark as per the service manual and every single one was perfect and they are twin overhead cam 4 valves per cylinder with solid followers. Plus how often do Nord engines need adjustment here ... again rarely and my Sud race engine also never needed adjustment even after a full race season with 9,000 rpm occasionally being used.
Pete
 
#138 ·
I am getting very even wear and good mileage out of the tyres on my GT, so I am not sure it is true that FWD means more wear. My car has KW V2 coilovers and a strut brace. We have two three litre 75s and they can wear the inside edge of the front tyres if set up for optimum handling. The red one was set up by Benincas and chewed out the Yokohamas on the front like that.
 
#139 ·
The 91 164S that we got in the US had significant negative camber in the front, as well as calling for a lot of toe out. This wore the front tires at a high rate, sometimes people getting 10-15k miles on them, if that. Later, Alfa revised the toe spec to basically zero, and that really helps, although it is the negative camber which is the devil in the details, not allowing these front drivers to get much more than 30k miles or so. That plus the heavier weight bias to the front as compared to RWD Alfas with their close to 50/50 distribution.

So, as far as I'm concerned, these heavier front drivers do wear the front tires faster than the equiv weight RWD cars, given optimum alignments for the least tire wear, even with frequent tire rotations, based on my own experience with both styles, from basic 850 minis to the 164, with RWD cars in between. With my Alfas, I've always tried for max tire wear, rather than optimum handling, not being a wild and crazy driver.
 
#140 ·
The settings Alfa quoted for the 159s when they came out led to rapid wear of the front tyres and many had to be replaced under warranty. At $600 per 19" tyre for the original Pirelli P Zero Neros on the ti model it was an expensive exercise if the car was out of warranty. The guys in the UK worked out that setting the toe to zero fixed the problem. We got 55,000 km out of the Pirelli Cinturato P1s on ours last time on that setting, with free rotation every 10,000 km from our tyre shop. They wore perfectly evenly. I didn't notice any loss of handling. We fit 245/35/19" tyres instead of the original 235/40/19" because they are common here and a lot cheaper.
 
#141 ·
My front tyres so far are wearing evenly, it is the rear that wore the inside quickly. Now of course I have no idea how old those tyres were and heck maybe they were the fronts until just before I bought the car??

Anyway running them 2 psi lower and going on 3 hour trips would not have helped, fully laden.

Will keep you informed :)
Pete
 
#142 ·
There is a series of numbers on the sidewall of the tyre that tells you exactly how old it is. You can look up how to read it on the web Pete.
 
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