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post #31 of 100 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 06:34 PM
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As most should be aware, not all engines were the same and not all were prepared in the same way even from event to event. We should not expect that any two cars were necessarily the same in this area at the time of build and they certainly will have changed over time. There may, in particular, be changes from the 204/A to the 205 in general and there may be unique changes to this particular 205?

There may be a problem of space in the Abarth 205 but I have to say that the technical "solution" of driving the generator from the distributor drive is not very clever for an engine that is to run a lot of miles. The drive gears will almost certainly wear out very quickly and it will also be very hard on the drive gears (or less likely ... timing chain) for the cam up front as well.

No problem, however, driving over the ramp at a concours, which may be what 205-103 was intended to do ... and little more? At least, in this current configuration. If I were to wish to drive it, I would not maintain the current generator location and drive configuration!

John
John,

Im not sure about the short distance nature of the engine set-up, as 101 certainly ran the MM successfully, and actually won a race at Monza. I would say that on the face of it you might be correct.

Im commenting on your previous post that Stu had quoted, im not sure what the reference to financial gain by fabricating history has to do with anything, but i would say that by process of elimination the truth can be arrived at 9 times out of 10. I for one try to be very careful about the history i attribute to my cars. It does not mean, however, that i should ignore all supporting evidence to arrive at logical results.

If you have information that is withheld from the general public then use the natural "trust me" clause, otherwise it comes across as pure speculation. Its almost like saying that because one cannot disprove the fact that there were two JFKs', we should consider that as a possible alternatives. But if we realize that, judging by the fact that JFK was naturally conceived and born and that no one has surfaced since before or after his death to claim that he is the 2nd JFK, that its 99.999 likely that there was only one JFK!

The same goes of the Abarth 205, certainly there could have been 10 of them, most likely not, but if we are trying to piece together history, the logical elimination path is the one that will yield the must accurate result... 9 times out of 10, thus the known set of 4(?) cars is the set we have to assume is the must accurate.
Anyhow, we can debate this until the second JFK shows up but ill just say that if you have info that can be shared pls do, some here eagerly await your input.

Rgds
elad

Last edited by 207A10; 04-27-2009 at 06:37 PM.
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post #32 of 100 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 06:46 PM
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A second JFK?

Now we are really getting away from SIRCA! I'd never even considered the possibility. That would be a distracting study indeed.
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post #33 of 100 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 06:50 PM
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Now we are really getting away from SIRCA! I'd never even considered the possibility. That would be a distracting study indeed.
call in Oliver Stone, he made some headway already!

btw, people might be interested to know that 205 - 101 just won the Judges prize at the Villa d'este show, wrong headlights, interior etc.. and all.

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post #34 of 100 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 06:52 PM
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Fabricating history?

I made no allusions whatsoever to fabricating history. The history was made. I asked for patience and thorough study ... and for each one of us to avoid assumptions. Apparently, you have accepted that 205-101 made the history that has been claimed for it. I do not. Yet. As I said. Some points need to be cleared up. I am done with a dialogue where I cannot attempt to help give perspective to those who want none.
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post #35 of 100 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 07:09 PM
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I made no allusions whatsoever to fabricating history. The history was made. I asked for patience and thorough study ... and for each one of us to avoid assumptions. Apparently, you have accepted that 205-101 made the history that has been claimed for it. I do not. Yet. As I said. Some points need to be cleared up. I am done with a dialogue where I cannot attempt to help give perspective to those who want none.
John,
You just yesterday made mention of the fact that rivet holes were found on 101 where the aerodynamic nose section should have attached, we know a car with a nose such as that raced in the MM, we know that another car without the nose section raced in the same year, so it must be 101 and 102, if 101 had rivet holes then 101 had that specific history. Am i missing anything?
i can tell you for certain that 103 did NOT have rivet holes.

rgds
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post #36 of 100 (permalink) Old 04-27-2009, 07:37 PM
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Adalberto Vitale in Vedano Olona (VA) Italy makes hand made, limited series models in 1/43rd scale of around 75 different etceterinis, under the name Lilliput. He recently made a model of the 205 coupe #630 from the MM 1950 (he calls it a 204). I have no idea if the back end was a guess, or he actually has some photos we haven't seen.

Here is a link to a photo of the model from an Italian model shop called Car model that has it in stock. I have a list of everything he has made, but no photos. He only does about 10 built-ups of each car, plus some kits. They are somewhat crude, but he is the only one who makes models of the cars we love.

car models - model cars - 1/43 - LILLIPUT - CISITALIA - ABARTH 204A BERLINETTA VIGNALE N 630 MILLE MIGLIA 1950

I can e-mail Adalberto and see if he actually has photos we haven't seen of this car, but his English isn't very good, and neither is my Italian. If someone else wants to ask, his e-mail is [email protected]


Grand Prix models has photos of many of the cars he has made. Their list is NOT complete. They list the models under the name History Car 43 for some reason. Here is a link

Die Cast Model Cars and Plastic Model Car Kits

use search>Manufacturer at the left, and scroll down to History Car 43 to get the list and see photos.

Last edited by dretceterini; 04-27-2009 at 08:04 PM. Reason: add info
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post #37 of 100 (permalink) Old 04-28-2009, 11:22 AM
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Now we are really getting away from SIRCA! I'd never even considered the possibility. That would be a distracting study indeed.
What about the fact that in some entry lists car #231 in 1951 is listed as a Sirca Fiat???
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post #38 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-01-2009, 07:31 PM
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WOW!! Thanks John I especially find it interesting that there may have been 2 cars that had the aerodynamic nose at some point in their lives. I also thought the green car had an Alfa giulietta motor in it. I have seen an entry list for the 1951 MM that lists race number 231 as simply a Fiat Sirca/DNS, with no mention of Abarth??
Congrats!! Reading the other thread it seemed they would never sell 103... well done..
the picture from the MM I found the french site forum-auto under the Mille miglia thread.. It has to be the same car.. .. Fantastic purchase.. i DARE NOT GUESS ON THE PRICE ...will it be Burgundy and black again?

Biz5300 / Niklas Hannah sweden

Ferrari 330GT2+2 series 1, Fiat 1100SMM Pinin Farina,
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post #39 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-02-2009, 10:01 AM
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Congrats!! Reading the other thread it seemed they would never sell 103... well done..
the picture from the MM I found the french site forum-auto under the Mille miglia thread.. It has to be the same car.. .. Fantastic purchase.. i DARE NOT GUESS ON THE PRICE ...will it be Burgundy and black again?

Biz5300 / Niklas Hannah sweden
I didn't buy the car, Elads did. Unfortunately beyond my budget...
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post #40 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-02-2009, 04:34 PM
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Congrats!! Reading the other thread it seemed they would never sell 103... well done..
the picture from the MM I found the french site forum-auto under the Mille miglia thread.. It has to be the same car.. .. Fantastic purchase.. i DARE NOT GUESS ON THE PRICE ...will it be Burgundy and black again?

Biz5300 / Niklas Hannah sweden
HI Niklas, Thank you.

I do agree that all paths lead to this car 205-103 being the car in the pictures - as we dont know of any of the other cars (101/102) having a two tone red/black paint scheme... the chances of Abarth going to the expanse of painting two show cars the same color are close to zero. So there you go.

The plan is to have the car returned to its fully original configuration. 0 modification. The incredible thing about the Buckland car, was that although past preservation, everything is there down to the seat covering, mats, gauges etc. So while not an easy restoration, once done im hoping for a condition faithful to the car's from the factory condition (sans the lacquer paint).

The paint will be Imola red with a black roof. Btw debating what color the dashboard should be, wondering if anyone has any insight into the usual practice by Vignale in 1950/51? The car had a poor black paint on the dash, which is non-original.

rgds
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post #41 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-08-2009, 02:58 PM
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Here is a photo I found from the 1950MM, but the car is called a 204A. At least we now have a photo of what the back portion of that car looked like...
Attached Images
 

Last edited by dretceterini; 05-08-2009 at 03:04 PM.
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post #42 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 05:59 AM
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So the question is: which 205 does this rear trunk/end belongs to?
First the picture:

Name:  Abarth 205 3.jpg
Views: 1553
Size:  59.9 KB

then 205-101

Name:  abarth4.jpg
Views: 1189
Size:  46.0 KB

Name:  abarth-1.jpg
Views: 1869
Size:  62.9 KB

then 205-102

Name:  ABARTH_2.JPG
Views: 1239
Size:  27.9 KB

Name:  1058909623_0.jpg
Views: 1507
Size:  56.9 KB

cont...
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post #43 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 06:06 AM
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now
Finally 205-103

Name:  DSC04747.jpg
Views: 2210
Size:  63.7 KB

Name:  DSC04748.jpg
Views: 1518
Size:  59.6 KB

Name:  TR 59 Byers0010.jpg
Views: 1730
Size:  50.5 KB


So What do we think? I put my money on 205-102 as having the rear end that is both much straighter, up rite and least curved.

Kind of makes sense given that 205-101 is said to have raced in the 1950 with the aero extensions.

Pls note that the 102 has undergone heavy modifications, and thus its the overall spacial relationship that matters, not the finish...

rgds

elad
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post #44 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 09:12 AM
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now
Finally 205-103

Attachment 139057

Attachment 139058

Attachment 139059


So What do we think? I put my money on 205-102 as having the rear end that is both much straighter, up rite and least curved.

Kind of makes sense given that 205-101 is said to have raced in the 1950 with the aero extensions.

Pls note that the 102 has undergone heavy modifications, and thus its the overall spacial relationship that matters, not the finish...

rgds

elad

I would tend to agree it is 205-102 before all the hideous modifications...and 205-101 is said to have had the holes for the noise and tail extensions. 205-103 looks pretty much like 205-101 to me, except the area from the rear window back looks longer and the "bump" over the front wheel archs doesn't look as tall....of course this could just be the angle the photos were taken at...

Last edited by dretceterini; 05-09-2009 at 09:16 AM.
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post #45 of 100 (permalink) Old 05-09-2009, 03:30 PM
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The first (old) photo shows a car with an entirely different rear end line of the door shape. Any ideas why?
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