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post #1 of 154 (permalink) Old 04-30-2008, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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Later Cisitalias

I came across this picture of a "Fiat Cisitalia" on a japanese site... it's much later than the generally known Cisitalia history. Dusio did build Fiat Abarths in Argentina under the name Cisitalia, but this seems different. Anybody can shed any light on this one?
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post #2 of 154 (permalink) Old 04-30-2008, 07:34 PM
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somebody shrank a Lancia Flaminia.

Ed
1970 Lancia Fulvia 1,6 HF
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post #3 of 154 (permalink) Old 04-30-2008, 11:21 PM
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well yes

I had one of those and sold it two years ago but mine was called Osca.. They are built on FiatOsca chassis.. 118 it is called, But there was not a single Fiat marking on the car. Even had OSCA inlet manifolds. What I believe is that Fissore (who did this body) heard Fiat were going to do a coupe on the 1600S chassis they proposed this car.. The order eventually went to Pininfarina instead and ,PROBABLY, they had already tooled up.. Now what? They had 20-30 cars over. Well, I know for a fact that 2 or three were sold to OSCA, cheaply I assume because cash was scarce, Badged EVERYWHERE as OSCAs and sold as Oscas. The rest were sold to piero Dusios Argentinian CisAr and badged as Cisitalia. This was long after Dusio disappeared from Europe. So They are in reality FIAT 1600S coupés with special body from Fissore.... NOT Cisitalias and NOT OSCAs
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post #4 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1,6 HF View Post
somebody shrank a Lancia Flaminia.
And then put Volvo 750 wheels on it without the caps. Funny, they look like an Italian alloy that way!

It is an extremely pretty car.
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post #5 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 10:57 AM
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Was this your car Niklas?
Mantorp 2004?
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post #6 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 12:42 PM
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That is a pretty good looking car. What is the value range on those?

Mike

60 Citroen ID - 62 Lancia Appia Vignale Convertibile - 64 Giulia TI - 69 Porsche 911S Targa (Soft Window) - 72 Junior Z 1600
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post #7 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 01:20 PM
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yep

That was my car indeed and before me Alex Fyshe in London.. it just sold again I heard .. It was really lovely...
Value slightly higher than a FIAT OSCAS coupes..15000 EUROS MAYBE...

Ferrari 330GT2+2 series 1, Fiat 1100SMM Pinin Farina,
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post #8 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 02:54 PM
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Holy crap - That is dirt cheap fun for a rare car that looks outstanding and has a sweet OSCA engine.

Please contact me if you know one for sale.

60 Citroen ID - 62 Lancia Appia Vignale Convertibile - 64 Giulia TI - 69 Porsche 911S Targa (Soft Window) - 72 Junior Z 1600
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post #9 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 05:28 PM
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Cisitalia Argentina

Part of this is already covered on another thread as I recall, but to summarize:

Many South American countries had tight currency controls. Some of them restricted imports of non-essential goods in an effort to keep monies in their countries. Sports and custom cars are not typically considered terribly essential by most governments for some reason.

Piero Dusio either exploited a loophole in Argentine law or found a way to make his Cisitalia Argentina operation an exception to existing law at the time. He managed to import a good number of Abarth, Fiat, Fiat-OSCA, Siata and other specialty-built cars and sold them under the Cisitalia (Argentina) name, oftentimes with new "Cisitalia" ID plates and ID numbers. Little by little, some of those cars have made their way back into the world market, sometimes maintaining their "Cisitalia" identities and some of them reverting to the original builder identity. Sometimes they have acquired creative stories along the way that might be seen as a bit of nonsense? Each case should be considered individually.

Fiat-OSCA engines were designed by the Maserati brothers as a production version of some of their race engine concepts with all production rights going to Fiat. Fiat gained some cachet and performance image and the Maserati brothers got to get paid regularly for a while by a volume producer rather than sporadically by customers. And, occasionally they also built some cars using their own versions of the engines. Sometimes, they used the Fiat version instead. Again, each case should be considered individually.

Fiat also got cachet (and had been doing so for a long time) from other specialty producers, such as Abarth, Siata, Zagato, Bertone, Pininfarina and others, Fissore included. Fiat made it possible for these specialty builders to buy chassis and build pricier, specialized versions that filled very small niche markets. Abarth made some. Fissore made some. Vignale made some. Moretti made some. Siata made some, etcetera. Not a great mystery if you go to period magazines and look at the ads for what these companies were trying to sell. Sometimes they managed to sell dozens and sometimes just one or two. For those that were not built as prototypes only, these cars are seldom as rare as we might tend to assume. They simply are not prominent in the mainstream car-collector world ... for various reasons ... and we get a bit arrogant when we assume that because we haven't seen something before, or have seen only one, that it was probably "unique".

If we were each to pay enough attention and take the time to capture the identities of the cars that we do see ... and then share that information in more than a vague fashion ... we might all get to learn something about various cars that we've never seen personally. That has been part of my effort for more than 25 years now. Anything you can do to help share specific information about a specific car or cars will be of assistance.

All the best.

John de Boer
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post #10 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 06:19 PM
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Alex F is an old family friend and he has some good cars. I remember the silver car but didn't know he'd sold it. He also has/had a perfect Siata Daina and Osca MT4, amongst others. Mbaum is right, that car is a sleeper ...
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post #11 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 06:22 PM
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Fiat-OSCA 118S

I should have mentioned that there are some incomplete records of production. For this particular Fissore-bodied Fiat-OSCA (Tipo 118S) there are 23 chassis numbers identified as coupe plus two spider/convertibles as well. There may be others in this series but there are certainly others that were built on earlier "Fiat" chassis without the "OSCA" distraction. Fissore first displayed a similar concept on a Fiat 1500 beginning 1959.

John de Boer
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post #12 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks to our authorities from clarifying this issue.

To summarize Cisitalia history:
- first, there were the authentic Cisitalias built in Italy by Piero Dusio such as the 202 and the Porsche designed 360.
- second, there were early Abarths which were a continuation of the 202s.
- then, there are the Fiat based cars of various designs labeled Cisitalia by P. Dusio during his stay in Argentina.
- and last, some other Fiat based cars would have been built by his son in Torino again under the name Cisitalia during the same period (this is from Wikipedia, but not mentioned anywhere else.)

Where do these two cars fit in there? They're both from the Cisitalia page of carsfromitaly.com.
The coupe looks like another Fiat 118 derivative.
The open one is similar to a car being restored by a local shop. It has a period american V8.
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post #13 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 09:09 PM
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Well neither of these 2 cars are actually argentinian, the one on the left is a 35 DF from 1957.. DF meant Derivata FIAT; derived from FIAT. and based on the FIAT1100/103 TV chassis, not the 118S which came later. The 35 DF had a FIAT 1250 engine and the 36 DF an 1100 one. The one on the right is a proper 202 Cisitalia bodied by CASTAGNA. One of 2 they bodied in 1948.. ..Rather beutiful too.... Please ask if they will sell it cheaply to me...


Regards Nik

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post #14 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-02-2008, 02:07 AM
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Cisitalia stages

Yves,

I would not say that you've organized the various stages or periods of Cisitalia production accurately. And I would also have to say that I have found many errors in the few listings I've seen on Wikipedia. Enough errors that I would not consider it a reliable resource that should stand on its own.

Cisitalia, as a car builder directly under Piero Dusio, built cars from 1946 to 1950. But when Dusio turned over the racing cars and operation to Carlo Abarth, this was not the end of Cisitalia as a car builder. Piero was still involved even as he moved himself and some cars to Argentina to work on the Autoar projects. Carlo Dusio stayed behind and oversaw the production of a good many Cisitalia cars that should certainly still be considered true Cisitalia.

Little by little, as a cost-savings factor, the number of Fiat parts grew for many of the cars. Regardless, quite a number of Tipo 202 tube-frame cars were built 1950, 1951 and 1952. The last of them, numerically anyway, were the BPM (marine) engined cars. And, not well known yet is the fact that many of the 202 cars were built with duplicate chassis numbers. Perhaps more in the earlier (1948-1950) time period rather than later period post 1950. This means that the actual production numbers for the Tipo 202 were higher than what is implied by looking at the number range. Higher than what has been stated many times over the last twenty years or so. As incomplete as the study currently is, there are more than twenty documented cases of number duplication. Some numbers were used more than twice! I am quite certain that we will find more with additional study of period documents.

After the 202, or perhaps even during the 202's waning production, production moved toward the "DF" (derivata Fiat) cars that used Fiat chassis rather than the specially made tubular chassis that had come before. And there were a good number of projects that came along through the 1950's that had the intent of returning Cisitalia to the good times as a car builder. Didn't happen, unfortunately, but even these cars have a right to be called "Cisitalia" or at least "Fiat-Cisitalia".

In the meantime, Abarth had figured out how to be a better businessman in the market that existed and his operation managed to capture a large portion of the small market that there was, making it difficult for almost all of the other specialty builders who were in competition.

Piero Dusio took advantage of his status as a car builder in Argentina and "built" some cars in Argentina that were perhaps assembled there. Other cars clearly piggybacked on that perception and probably needed no assembly whatsoever to become badged as "Cisitalia-Argentina". This could be considered "badging" but probably should not be referred to as "production" even if some kits probably did come from the Italian Cisitalia operation.

Some of the early Abarth cars that came from Cisitalia were a mix of Cisitalia creations and Abarth (Porsche) creations built under the financial umbrella and name of Piero Dusio's Cisitalia. So, when those cars were turned over to Abarth, it is mostly a game of semantics as to whether a car should be called "Abarth" or "Cisitalia". But, these cars should not really be considered a separate stage of Cisitalia production. They were built by Cisitalia under Dusio and later modified by Abarth. A few of the cars may have been built actually by Abarth without Cisitalia involvement ... outside of some parts supply, but then those cars would not be considered "Cisitalia" at all. And I'm sure that the flow of parts went both ways.
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post #15 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-02-2008, 03:31 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks again.

Cisitalia history is extremely rich, but foggy. The list of people who were connected to the design of these cars sounds like a "who's who" of postwar sports car history.

I had guessed the open car was one of the Ford-engined Cisitalias. Wrong, as well as the "203" caption attached to the jpeg file.

The classiccars.com chassis listing has 3 entries for Ford-engined Cisitalias, listed with the 303's. They are numbered 808 00201 to 00203. Are there any photographs of these cars?
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