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post #31 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-06-2008, 02:04 PM
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osca

Indeed. It is the same car.. It spent 20 years there and in another museum and toke some time to get going again.. Here is the car at the museum before I bought it and another one today..
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post #32 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-06-2008, 07:53 PM
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Indeed. It is the same car.. It spent 20 years there and in another museum and toke some time to get going again.. Here is the car at the museum before I bought it and another one today..

There was no Cisitalia badged version of this car, was there?
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post #33 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-07-2008, 01:03 AM
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hehe

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There was no Cisitalia badged version of this car, was there?

HEHE nope sure wasnt... :-)

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post #34 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-07-2008, 09:59 AM
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??Cisitalia-Argentina (Fiat-OSCA Fissore) ??

Not so fast? Until we describe the whole of the production completely, there's still a lot that we don't know, so it may be better to keep our minds open? Rather like the apparent gap from chassis number 0037 to chassis 0070 in the OSCA 1600GT series.

I recall seeing a coupe (Fissore?, remembered as being quite similar to Viotti or Ellena?) Fiat-OSCA. Sorry Nik, but I have to disagree with your feeling that it is wrong to call these cars "Fiat-OSCA". Even worse, my father and I have oftentimes called them "Fosca"! But you might be able to blame that moniker on my father as I'm sure he exposed me to that at a young age. Not my fault! In any case, this car was badged as "Cisitalia" and was at Walnut Creek Ferrari back in 1991/1992. I thought it was longer ago than that. The car had come from South America. Chassis was Fiat 118S*003727 and the engine was Fiat 118.000*001791. The "Numero per Ricambi" was 717111 which still seems a bit odd. But then, what I didn't know then was a lot more than the huge amount I don't know now. Haven't seen sign of that car since, so far as I know, but I have learned that there was a small series of Fissore-bodied cars that Cisitalia called "DF/85" and at least two went to South America. Could an "OSCA-Fissore" have gone as well? Of course. Did one? I don't know.

Simply because you (nor I) have not seen an OSCA 1600GT (PR2 or PRV or GT2?) Fissore that was badged and sold by Cisitalia-Argentina does not mean that one never existed. And of course, if it did exist, it would not mean that it was really a "Cisitalia" in any case! Or, we might say it was a "Cisitalia" but perhaps not "a Cisitalia". Cool car in any case, no matter the name.

John

Last edited by iicarJohn; 05-07-2008 at 10:31 AM. Reason: Found some notes ... and revision was needed!
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post #35 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-07-2008, 12:33 PM
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Osca 1600gt

I thought that I should point out (once again) that these kinds of cars require individual study and description. Nik's comments above in describing the differences between OSCA and Fiat cars are accurate to a point, but there can be exceptions to some of his generalizations.

As an example, the OSCA 1600GT N. 00112 is a Fissore cabriolet on a Fiat chassis platform ... with IRS, the car built and numbered by OSCA. Chassis N. 00113 is a Fissore cabriolet on a tubular chassis ... also built and numbered by OSCA. Would the owner of N. 00113 be accurate (or a bit elitist?) if he were to refer to chassis N. 00112 as being "just a Fiat-OSCA"?

OSCA was a specialty builder trying to be competitive in a largely production car world. They did what they had to at times to deliver a product that would fulfill someone's needs at a price that would be paid. They had the authority to issue chassis numbers for their products and it is no surprise that sometimes an "OSCA" product might incorporate a few more Fiat parts than another "OSCA" product. And the price out the door for one might have been quite different than the price out the door for the other.

I have lots of questions about how these cars were marketed. How and why certain type designations were applied and used ... or ignored. Only by looking individually at each and every car and describing them carefully will we know that we haven't made some errors of assumption based on knowing too little about just a few cars.

A study can be approached from a focus on the builder, OSCA. Already doing that. Another study can be done focusing on the various coachbuilders, in this case Zagato, Fissore, Boneschi and Touring. Already doing that too. Another study should probably be done of the related Fiat cars. That study will then involve Pininfarina and probably others? Another study can be done, focused on the public presentation of the 1600GT "series" that was actually a bunch of small series ... when they were not strings of "one-offs". The implications of that possiblity is that we need to study each and every car.

Nik, I'm wondering why you call your car (and other similar cars) "GT2" when OSCA advertised the Fissore cars as being available as "1600PR2" or "1600PRV" with either 105cv or 125cv engines respectively. The "1600GT2" label was applied (only?) to the 105cv Zagato-bodied cars as near as I can tell from period literature. I'm not saying you are incorrect in using "GT2". I just don't know enough to say one way or the other. I understand that ownership can sometimes give knowledge or a perspective a bit different than that of a mere student.

John
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post #36 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-08-2008, 10:19 AM
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Not so fast? Until we describe the whole of the production completely, there's still a lot that we don't know, so it may be better to keep our minds open? Rather like the apparent gap from chassis number 0037 to chassis 0070 in the OSCA 1600GT series.

I recall seeing a coupe (Fissore?, remembered as being quite similar to Viotti or Ellena?) Fiat-OSCA. Sorry Nik, but I have to disagree with your feeling that it is wrong to call these cars "Fiat-OSCA". Even worse, my father and I have oftentimes called them "Fosca"! But you might be able to blame that moniker on my father as I'm sure he exposed me to that at a young age. Not my fault! In any case, this car was badged as "Cisitalia" and was at Walnut Creek Ferrari back in 1991/1992. I thought it was longer ago than that. The car had come from South America. Chassis was Fiat 118S*003727 and the engine was Fiat 118.000*001791. The "Numero per Ricambi" was 717111 which still seems a bit odd. But then, what I didn't know then was a lot more than the huge amount I don't know now. Haven't seen sign of that car since, so far as I know, but I have learned that there was a small series of Fissore-bodied cars that Cisitalia called "DF/85" and at least two went to South America. Could an "OSCA-Fissore" have gone as well? Of course. Did one? I don't know.

Simply because you (nor I) have not seen an OSCA 1600GT (PR2 or PRV or GT2?) Fissore that was badged and sold by Cisitalia-Argentina does not mean that one never existed. And of course, if it did exist, it would not mean that it was really a "Cisitalia" in any case! Or, we might say it was a "Cisitalia" but perhaps not "a Cisitalia". Cool car in any case, no matter the name.

John
True.. Of course .. I will post a link to an Argentinian ad site when I get home Where they in fact have 3 or 4 of the earlier discussed Fissore bodied Fiat 118S with Osca badging; my old car.. There are more of these around than one thinks, Also have a pic of a silver car badged Cisitalia with New York plates.. That could be the car you saw above perhaps... :-)
Off to monaco historics grand prix tomorrow.. Anyone going give me a shout ere.. Mille miglia the week after...
C U Nik

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post #37 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-08-2008, 10:27 AM
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I thought that I should point out (once again) that these kinds of cars require individual study and description. Nik's comments above in describing the differences between OSCA and Fiat cars are accurate to a point, but there can be exceptions to some of his generalizations.

As an example, the OSCA 1600GT N. 00112 is a Fissore cabriolet on a Fiat chassis platform ... with IRS, the car built and numbered by OSCA. Chassis N. 00113 is a Fissore cabriolet on a tubular chassis ... also built and numbered by OSCA. Would the owner of N. 00113 be accurate (or a bit elitist?) if he were to refer to chassis N. 00112 as being "just a Fiat-OSCA"?

OSCA was a specialty builder trying to be competitive in a largely production car world. They did what they had to at times to deliver a product that would fulfill someone's needs at a price that would be paid. They had the authority to issue chassis numbers for their products and it is no surprise that sometimes an "OSCA" product might incorporate a few more Fiat parts than another "OSCA" product. And the price out the door for one might have been quite different than the price out the door for the other.

I have lots of questions about how these cars were marketed. How and why certain type designations were applied and used ... or ignored. Only by looking individually at each and every car and describing them carefully will we know that we haven't made some errors of assumption based on knowing too little about just a few cars.

A study can be approached from a focus on the builder, OSCA. Already doing that. Another study can be done focusing on the various coachbuilders, in this case Zagato, Fissore, Boneschi and Touring. Already doing that too. Another study should probably be done of the related Fiat cars. That study will then involve Pininfarina and probably others? Another study can be done, focused on the public presentation of the 1600GT "series" that was actually a bunch of small series ... when they were not strings of "one-offs". The implications of that possiblity is that we need to study each and every car.

Nik, I'm wondering why you call your car (and other similar cars) "GT2" when OSCA advertised the Fissore cars as being available as "1600PR2" or "1600PRV" with either 105cv or 125cv engines respectively. The "1600GT2" label was applied (only?) to the 105cv Zagato-bodied cars as near as I can tell from period literature. I'm not saying you are incorrect in using "GT2". I just don't know enough to say one way or the other. I understand that ownership can sometimes give knowledge or a perspective a bit different than that of a mere student.

John
From what I understand the PR means P? R = Rigido I forget what the P stands for , meaning live rear axle, Mine hasnt and the ones I have seen havnt got live rear axles. possibly the earliest one.. GT a a single carb and 90 something HP, GT2; 2 WEBER 38 DCOEs and 105 HP, GTS had 125 and only the comp Zagatos had 140 twin sparks etc... Ill check my fact when I get home... This from period article and test drive of the Fissore .. Ill scan and post it... later today.. :-)

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post #38 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-08-2008, 10:30 AM
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cab

Was the convertible really built on 118S Chassis? There were 2 factory cars and one a converted cup... Did they make a Morelli? Never seen a pic of that car....
Do you have a listing for OSCA by the way?
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post #39 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-08-2008, 10:31 AM
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From what I understand the PR means P? R = Rigido I forget what the P stands for , meaning live rear axle, Mine hasnt and the ones I have seen havnt got live rear axles. possibly the earliest one.. GT a a single carb and 90 something HP, GT2; 2 WEBER 38 DCOEs and 105 HP, GTS had 125 and only the comp Zagatos had 140 twin sparks etc... Ill check my fact when I get home... This from period article and test drive of the Fissore .. Ill scan and post it... later today.. :-)
PONTE RIGIDO I think...

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post #40 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-08-2008, 01:24 PM
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GT or GT2

I there again..
I have to correct myself slightly..
1600GT s were available in 4 sets ov tune.
GT 95 BHP
GT2 105 BHP
GTV 125 BHP
GTS 140 BHP according to Orsini/Zagaro's OSCA book

Now, the Fissore was the Base model and available only in GT and GT2 versions whereas the Zagatos I Think, in all 4... ( I wont swear by that).
PR2, meaning, Ponte Rigido, live Rear axle, came with the Fissore Cars who had the weakest engine only and probably very few were made like that. GT2 cars and all other Zagatos and Fissores had independent suspension.. Most Fissore cars I have seen (3) have GT2 on the boot... I am scanning a couple of period car magazine articles now if anyone is interested.. I am partial on this one... :-)

Nik

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post #41 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-08-2008, 01:56 PM
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here

we are... Ill add a few pics of other cars.. If anyone has more pics of Fissore cars I would be really happy to receive them..
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post #42 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-08-2008, 02:05 PM
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osca

The first is my car's boot..
second car Is Geneva show car 00017, Different boot and PR2
Third car is period shot of 00105
Fourth car is 00106 with Fiat engine
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post #43 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-08-2008, 02:10 PM
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amore

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The first is my car's boot..
second car Is Geneva show car 00017, Different boot and PR2
Third car is period shot of 00105
Fourth car is 00106 with Fiat engine
5th car is the one currently for sale at Luzzago 00109, period shot and current
6th car , unknown VIN in Holland and Japan before
7th car is Unknown VIN, perfect, Italian car
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post #44 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-08-2008, 02:21 PM
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And finally.. The convertible 00113...
So I have 7 known cars existing today.. I am sure there more...
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post #45 of 154 (permalink) Old 05-08-2008, 02:26 PM
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A lot from me now.. Promised some pics of Cisi/OSCA/Fiat 118S arginian cars. here:
First car is New York Car
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