Flaminia Coup -the Bugatti-Wagen- - Page 34 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #496 of 555 (permalink) Old 08-13-2019, 07:53 AM
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might this be useful for parts? no reserve...
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/lancia-v6/

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post #497 of 555 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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might this be useful for parts? no reserve...
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/lancia-v6/
That is a really nice looking engine. Albeit the 813.00 is of interest for Flaminia Berlina 1st series only. Heavier flywheel, smaller inlet and exhaust valves each with single spring only, weaker rockers . . . all missing here. Anyhow, the heads are accordingly, smaller ports for inlet and outlet.

If thinking of a runner, only the unstamped block and the oil pan would be of interest. They are machined together, therefore should be used as a pair, but then you can make any engine up to 2.5 3C out of them provided nobody notices that the flange for the mechanical fuel pump is there, which it is not on 3B and 3C engines.







Or turn it into the ultimate Flaminia 3.0


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post #498 of 555 (permalink) Old 08-15-2019, 06:45 AM
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yes, it's the block i was thinking might be useful. no corrosion present. new blocks can't be found easily i'd imagine. but then the artwork is lost...

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post #499 of 555 (permalink) Old 09-01-2019, 08:52 AM Thread Starter
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As the “numbers matching” engine cannot be used without mayor block repair, a 2.8 L (call it the Black Pearl because it is black from dirt) was acquired, planned to be pumped up to 3.0 in the first stage. Dismantling of the Pearl turned out to be difficult. The mess started with the heads. When applying my EHE (EPI-Hexadecimal Extractor), which pulled every head up to now, the only thing being pulled where the rocker support studs, which came out with the thread that should hold them down.
Had been thinking of a second generation EHE for some time, so converted the old one to EHE-EVO I.

Consisting of three parts, it now holds the head with the exhaust header studs, the rocker support studs and the intake manifold studs while still pressing on the studs that fix the head to the block.

Several days of making the components, warming up the head in the critical areas several times, and letting some penetrating oil work it´s wonder and the result is . . . nothing. Except for the variety of blown away and bent bolts.

The most spectacular moment was, when the extractor shot four bolt heads off at the same time.

The studs will have to be removed on the milling machine. As its work depth is too small to take up the whole engine plus the tools and the travel they need, the oil pan was removed in order to get the crankshaft out and gain some space.

How surprised I was detecting the reason why the engine was put out of service back in the day. One of the conrods is heavily bent, one other suffers from a bearing failure.

Anybody out there willing to help me out with one (or better one set of) conrod for 2.8L???




Even the spark plugs won´t go without some controlled brutality.








Strange things to be found in hidden places


Aquatic storage, no good for crankshafts


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post #500 of 555 (permalink) Old 09-01-2019, 04:46 PM
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Looks like you are going to have to cut the heads off. I wonder if this can be done accurately enough that, after installing new head studs the block AND head could be reused after skimming.

The only tool I can think of his a bandsaw and cut where the head gasket is. Hopefully minimal damage to both head and block surfaces, otherwise you will have to choose whether to save the heads or the blocks ...
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post #501 of 555 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 12:07 AM
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Hi Hubert,
Is it not possible to create a puller that pushes the head up from the inside through the pistons while the other pulls it from the outside?
Giovanni

Last edited by Giovanni1985; 09-02-2019 at 09:51 AM.
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post #502 of 555 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 07:01 AM
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before cutting things apart i would try a bath of 50%acetone 50% atf. soak the assembly for a week or so...

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post #503 of 555 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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Extracting the heads



It becomes obvious that not all components of the engine can be saved, but the heads and the block are too rare to be sacrificed. And it is the studs that cause the problem. I have heard of someone sending an (Aurelia) engine to a company in Sweden where they removed the studs by wire eroding. No need to send it to Sweden for this purpose but ok, that worked.

Pete,

Cutting with a bandsaw may technically be possible, but I do not have one, besides the trouble inaccurate cut would cause (as you also say).

Giovanni,

Basically a good idea, but the pistons and conrods are still there and they are sticking in the liners, so this obstruction would add to the force needed. But there is another argument against an even heavier extractor. The EHE-EVO I is already stronger than the workpiece, that means bringing in power is not the issue. It is the head that does not stand the forces. If you look closely at one of yesterdays pics, you will see that not only the exhaust header studs started shearing off but also the exhaust port itself started deforming. It can be corrected yet, but sooner or later the head would crack.

Brian,

I did not put the whole assembly in a bath because that would be “eine Riesensauerei”, a giant mess or so, but soaked the studs and the holes with “bolt releaser” (don´t know how you call in English) for days. Also thought of applying rust remover, citric acid or similar, but probably that would take months, because the gap where the chemistry would work, is small and it is almost 2 inches to go through.
Was still quite successful today, dismantled the 2nd candidate without problems. This one is for classiclancia.com and there should be a third one coming in sooner or later.

Also began cleaning of the Black Pearl just to get it prepared for handling.



The extractor is not fixed to the head, only placed in position for photographing









Hubert


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post #504 of 555 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 01:13 PM
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since the pins are from
sacrifice you can not try to unscrew them or at least twist them to remove the block by welding a nut on each one?
is the 2800 conrod different from 2500?

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post #505 of 555 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giovanni1985 View Post
since the pins are from
sacrifice you can not try to unscrew them or at least twist them to remove the block by welding a nut on each one?
. . .
Hmm, that might be something, have to think about it!

The conrods are different, stronger (thicker) with a bigger small end for a bigger diameter piston pin.

A good friend has already shipped a set of 2.8L conrods so this issue is solved.

Hubert


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post #506 of 555 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 03:07 PM
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Looking at your photos a bandsaw would not work as the other head would be in the way.

Yes, I like the suggestion of trying to remove the studs. I believe for Triumph Stags you can buy a tube shaped hacksaw that is used to cut the corrosion around each head stud. I assume it fits into a drill ... but I might be dreaming as I have not been able to find such a thing via the Internet.

But something like these long hole saws might work: https://www.dhresource.com/0x0/f2/al...dJ2SmUY586.jpg
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post #507 of 555 (permalink) Old 09-03-2019, 11:57 AM Thread Starter
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Pulling the heads



Discussed the "welded nut method" with a close friend, who had practiced it. The only success was tearing off the first nut right at its bottom side, then welding another one on, doing the same. In the end the heads were still blocked but the protrusion of the studs was gone.

We have found out that the table of our milling machine can be lowered by about 6 cm. With the oil pan removed and a 30° take-up it may fit in the machine. Will report.

In order to define the dimensions of the new pistons for a planned compression ratio of about 10:1, (factory 9:1), the volume of the combustion chambers had to be measured. Did a quick and dirty first round on one head without too much cleaning of the valves and chambers.

Used an acrylic glass plate as a cover, sealed the chambers with an oil film and titrated them with two types of burets, one of 25ml and a smaller of 10ml for the last drops.

Had calculated the theoretical chamber volume with 52 cm³ and measured about 52, 52, and 54cm³.
If the measures prove right when being more diligent, the difference of 2cm³ means a comp ratio of 8,75:1. Given I have not made a mistake, how is the difference between 9:1 and 8,75:1 to be judged?

I would say the difference is significant and balancing will bring an improvement on performance and smoothness, does anyone have experience with this?







Hubert


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post #508 of 555 (permalink) Old 09-03-2019, 04:03 PM
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Do the pistons have any dome to them?
post #509 of 555 (permalink) Old 09-04-2019, 12:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Do the pistons have any dome to them?

Other than the 2.5, the 2.8 piston is not domed but has a slight crown on it, no valve pockets. The combustion chambers are being compared at the moment. As the whole valve train plus seats, guides stems etc. is identical to 823.00 upwards but the casting of the head is different, I will check closely what the differences are.

The Flaminia is sensitive to engine knocking and it should be avoided to raise the compression ratio too close to the limit, keeping in mind that my fabricating capabilties are limited in respect to precision (and other things).


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post #510 of 555 (permalink) Old 09-04-2019, 05:42 AM Thread Starter
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Roughly figured out how big the cup on the piston is. Height approx 2 mm, diameter 79 mm resulting in about 5 cm³ of volume reduction of the combustion chamber. Looks as if not much will be needed to get the compression ratio to 10:1.

Hubert


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