Flaminia Coup -the Bugatti-Wagen- - Page 13 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #181 of 463 (permalink) Old 05-12-2016, 12:40 PM
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I've been following your threat for some time now, Hubert, and reading your latest post convinced me that you may be single-handedly causing the marketplace to reevaluate the value of PF Flaminias! Truly, you're doing some wonderful work here. I've always thought the PF Flaminia coupes were some of the most elegant cars of that period. They're superb road cars too and, although Alfa tried to match them with the 2600's, they aren't even close in terms of build quality or driving quality. BTW: the light red color of your car's interior is exactly the color of my Zagato's seats and door panels. I think Lancia intentionally chose that slightly muted red color as one that works better with the overall design context of the car. A typical bright-red won't work nearly as well, in my opinion.

Jim . . . '72 Super 1300, '70, 1750GTV, 2nd series,
'62, Lancia Flaminia Zagato3c, 2nd series
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post #182 of 463 (permalink) Old 06-03-2016, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Rear quarter coming to an end

This d..d thing is almost finished now. Only two quite small panels of the drip rail are missing. That means that the shape is ok, but the surface appearance is not satisfying. When looking at professionally built panels they seem to have a ground surface and I have not found out how it is done. Manually with a sheet of sand paper, or with a belt grinder??? . . . I don´t have a clue!

This restoration is not only a story about how to beat a panel or paint something or replace a part, it´s my personal endeavor to master a complex problem. This kind of challenge has its low points and I am right down at rock bottom.

Don, I think it was you stating (on Petrolicious) that restoring a totally dead PF-Coupé would be waste of time and skills. I did not comment at that time, but you are so right!!! I will not do this again!
(A Sebring would probably make a difference).

It would have been so easy to go to Italy and buy a Coupé of perfect condition, or even better I should have kept my “Kommandowagen”, which I restored almost twenty years ago.

Now, self-pity leads nowhere, but I have an issue to put up for discussion. There are original body components (Lancia original spares) available, a right hand front wing and a complete front mask (discovered by a close friend, no idea how he finds these). What to do? It would be comparatively easy to nail these to the body and most of the work would be done . . .

What do you think?

Hubert

PS I placed another pic of the engine because I did some completing work on it, give it a spark and will will run
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Flaminia GT 3C, Flaminia Convertibile 3C, Flavia Convertibile 1.8, A112 Abarth, Flaminia Coupé 2.5, Fulvia Sport 1.3S, Unimog U900

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post #183 of 463 (permalink) Old 06-03-2016, 03:08 PM
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Hubert, I think we all go through periods during a BIG restoration when we get depressed either because we seem to be making no progress, or are not satisfied with the work we have done - or both. From our perspective as watchers I would doubt if any one of us thinks your work is inferior. I admire you. Big jobs like this because you are working as well so are not working full time on the project do take a huge amount of time (and money) and are beyond most both in terms of technical ability and time input.
Re the panel finishing you can go the "American Way" and coat with a thin coat of filler and then long board flat, or use either a DA sander and/or body file to get the surface right using lead filler for deeper irregularities that you cant get a dolly behind.
Perhaps its time you took a break from it and drove one of your restored cars until the enthusiasm returns after all its summer over there now isn`t it?.
Re those new parts its tempting isn`t it - depends on whether you wish to do it all or finish it off yourself doing all bodywork. Are you keeping the car yourself? If so in the long term you may well get more satisfaction by doing the lot without using bought in panels. The passing of time will smooth over the frustration, the difficulties, the cost etc.
The car looks superb to me Hubert.

Richard J
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post #184 of 463 (permalink) Old 06-04-2016, 12:44 AM
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Hi Hubert,
I am restoring a badly damaged touring. I am having to fabricate the rear chassis leg and the inner wheel arch as well as a lot of straightening and massaging of the boot floor and rear seat area. I will have to also reconstruct all the supperleggera tube work on the rear.
if I could buy panels I would not even think twice about it. it would save mountains of work.

just my thoughts.

cheers ian

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post #185 of 463 (permalink) Old 06-06-2016, 05:03 AM
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Vita brevis,
ars longa,
occasio praeceps,
experimentum periculosum,
iudicium difficile.


Hubert,

I don't recall making so definite a statement, but at the outset I might well have questioned whether the subject car is the best use of your time and talents. At this point, I recommend the wisdom of Hippocrates quoted above. Regret seems pointless. You made the decision to restore a PF Flaminia coupe because the car had some particular significance or appeal to you. It was a considered decision and undoubtedly right for that moment. If money meant everything, we would all have undoubtedly chosen different careers, etc.

It is not hard to see the special appeal of the PF coupe - unrivaled elegance, mechanical sophistication, perfect functionality. It is worth persisting for all reasons other than financial gain, and your own journey, so generously documented, has been great pleasure to many others like myself. Certainly this is worthwhile.

But I think you are right to question whether re-manufacturing almost every part of the bodywork is best way forward. I have read in some forums that replacement panels can often be so difficult to fit that it might be easier to build afresh, given Italian manufacturing practices of the period. Undoubtedly you would be the best judge of this, although in the end there are no guarantees that the decision will be correct.

I have no doubt that the project will be worth finishing. But for now I think Alfavirusnz offers the best advice, to drive and enjoy your completed cars for a while.

Again many thanks for sharing your experiences with the rest of us. Your shop, your tools, your skills are wonderful inspiration for our own dreams.

Don
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post #186 of 463 (permalink) Old 06-06-2016, 10:40 AM
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Ah yes... the Italian manic-depression. Everything is right, until it isn't. I love this car... Aaargh, why do I put myself through this!

Once you have accepted the fact that there will be days like this, it becomes so much easier to move forward - knowing that there is sunshine and enjoyment (if only momentary) ahead.

When you look at a project such as this, it is all about the learning and experience. Can I do that? Can I learn that skill? You are currently an inspiration.

Regarding the finish of the panels - would a body file accomplish what you are seeking? The old school body men (who used lead filler) would use these to finish the steel once it is bumped into place and needed no filler in that area - just fine smoothing.

Regarding the replacement panels. So that you can understand my perspective, I do everything in a low budget, how much can I salvage mode. I never work with cars that have finished value of any significance to anyone but me. They started as junk and if I fail, they still will be junk (sometimes even if I succeed). With that perspective, I say repair your existing panels.

You may have to take a breath, regroup and come back at it once you are feeling refreshed, but I think you will end up here as well.

84 Spider - Long gone, but started the addiction; 85 GTV6 - Current project, Supercharged, Mega Squirt; 88 Verde - "Milo" It has a name, must be a keeper
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post #187 of 463 (permalink) Old 06-06-2016, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you very much for your thoughts and comments. Let me tell you what I did. It fits to your suggestions to a hundred percent.

When frustration is at maximum, it is a good thing to step back and try to evaluate the situation from a more distant stand point. Sometimes it is not the work that is not good enough, it is the standard you apply for evaluation. When I had a look at the car today, I could only agree to you Richard. E.g. the surface is really good and not bad at all. Obviously I lost my clear view. There are only two more panels of this section to be made, ridiculous compared to the work already done.

Your analysis of the story puts it in a nutshell, Don. Considering the history of the Bugattiwagen, how I came to own it etc. a “better” car from Italy would not be the same thing in the long run.

Ian, the panels are not cheap, the front mask for example is 1k Euro and still in Italy. The most difficult part is close to being finished. My positive attitude is already coming back, will push this by driving the convertible a bit more. Besides, I had the front wing in my shop right at the beginning of the project, but took it back to the seller, I´d say that that decision was right and is still valid.

Marc, it is as you say, I will end up at your end.

Back to the technical issues. Some new hammerheads (made out of plastics) for the planishing hammer have arrived. Maybe they will bring the final touch.
The spare panels shall help someone else getting his Coupé back on the road, I will take the ones from DIY.

Hubert
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post #188 of 463 (permalink) Old 06-09-2016, 12:08 PM Thread Starter
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3-way-temperature control valve for oil circiut

In 2012 i was looking for new oil circuit thermostats, but could not find any. So I developed a replacement for the old item using modern components. Three prototypes were made, which serve in my Flaminias and the Flavia without problems for four years now.

Now a small series is ready for assembly. One of the prototypes can be seen on pic 2, pic 3 shows the valve bodies.

Does anyone know if there is a source for the original parts and if not, would it be of interest starting series production?

Hubert
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post #189 of 463 (permalink) Old 07-10-2016, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
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Bought these lamp housing assemblies on the web.(Thanks to a hint from my friend rafano from this forum) The rings are not the problem, but the retainers are. Mine were fairly rotten.
Cleaned the housings and painted them for storage.

Maybe I should change my strategy and only use original spares. Would stretch the timetable by centuries.

Hubert

BTW they were offered as Flaminia Sport parts, to evoke the Zagato price magic, I suppose. Wonder how you would fix these to the aluminium shell.
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post #190 of 463 (permalink) Old 08-08-2016, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
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Return

Returned to the project today after having gathered new motivation by doing a lot of garden work during the last months. What should I say, I found some part of the rear window frame being too ugly to remain, cut it out, took pics. I looked it up, the left side was much better.

The corner of the wing is complete and fits really well. The horizontal edge will receive fine tuning once the wing is welded on.

Hubert

BTW Does anyone have an opinion about JBL 4430 monitor speakers?
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post #191 of 463 (permalink) Old 08-09-2016, 07:33 AM
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the jbl 4430 is a well respected monitor. they were in production for a very long time and with good reason. the frequency response is very good and provide a nice quality sound.
if you are going to use them in your shop you may have some challenges though, the high ceiling and hard wall surfaces can be problematic.
if you are going to use them in a sound room though, you really can't go wrong.

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post #192 of 463 (permalink) Old 08-13-2016, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
the jbl 4430 is a well respected monitor. they were in production for a very long time and with good reason. the frequency response is very good and provide a nice quality sound.
if you are going to use them in your shop you may have some challenges though, the high ceiling and hard wall surfaces can be problematic.
if you are going to use them in a sound room though, you really can't go wrong.
Brian, thanks for the advice. I remember that they were regarded as one of the best speakers worldwide. Investigated my current equipment a bit further and found out that the power amp is too weak for the speakers. They have a very bad sound pressure level value (83 dB 1W 1m). The JBL 4430 is much better in that. But will go for more muscle first as the JBLs are extremely hard to find here. My walls are not bad soundwise, because they are rough, masoned bricks. The room is quite big for a common home stereo, PA would be better, but I do not want to turn it into a disco.

I promised posting the last pics of the right rear corner serveral times, but this time it is true (for the moment). Spent four hours on trimming all the edges to their correct size, did some final cambering with the planishing hammer, which I now understand much better. Also have some resin hammer heads for it, with which you can work more sensitively(?).

Long story short, the part is welded to the body at all relevant corners. Fits quite well, especially the gap to the door is not bad.

I am so eager to start work on the face of the car!!!!

Hubert
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post #193 of 463 (permalink) Old 10-29-2016, 11:27 AM Thread Starter
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The left side of the front mask is out of shape so that I have to duplicate the passenger side.

Hubert
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post #194 of 463 (permalink) Old 11-05-2016, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
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Preparing left side panels
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post #195 of 463 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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This week´s output. I am converting the old rolls of my English wheel into anvils. Using the pneumatic hammer more and more. This thing never gets tired!

Hubert
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